$73,000 for a 1 night stay in hospital because of a snake bite

[dtrader98]

Quote from Trader666:

No, the WHO rankings are a complete joke. And the WHO ranked the United States 37th, not 38th.

First of all... if that was an objective measure and the U.S. really was 37th, NO WAY would we also have the world's highest 5 year prostate and breast cancer survival rates.

Second, NO WAY would any of the following facts exist either:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

Finally, the attached 12 page paper exposes the WHO rankings for the subjective, logically incoherent, ideological load of BS that they are.

Not that it's really relevant, because those who want to see what they believe will seek out evidence that supports their personal beliefs (quite common on ET). But I certainly wouldn't use a US based local CEO, business, and right wing supported think tank as an objective reference, either.
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/08/06/facts-about-american-health-care-revisited/

While the U.S. may (or may not) be the best, it is certainly the most expensive.
--Healthcare Economist

 

[piezoe]

I don't no how this thread got onto vitamins D and C but i read some incorrect information, so i'll post what i learned from Linus Pauling with regard to C.

1. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is not an oxidizing agent. It is a reducing agent.

2. There is a substantial body of clinical studies done on Vitamin C. Much of it was done in England and usually involved massive doses.

3. Among other things, these studies showed that the humans could withstand very large doses of vitamin C with few adverse effects, mostly gastric disturbance. In at least one study a large dose of Vitamin C was administered intravenously to a comatose patient, if i recall correctly. The patient recovered.

4. It was shown rather convincingly that massive doses, similar to 20 grams over 24 hours, could cure the common cold caused by rhinovirus if administered when symptoms first appeared. It was less effective when administered later.

5. Clinical studies were repeated in the US but using much smaller doses. The results did not agree with those from the British studies using very large doses.

6. It requires an approximately 10-fold increase in ingested Vitamin C to double the level of Vitamin C in blood.

I heard Pauling lecture on these studies, and these are my recollections of what he said in that lecture. I know that Pauling (who was a Physical Chemist, not an M.D., took a large dose of Vitamin C daily for much of his life ( the number 2 grams with each meal sticks in my head, but i am not certain of that anymore as it was years ago that i heard him speak on this subject.) He died in his nineties of prostate cancer, but was healthy and vigorous until near the end. He was absolutely convinced that the MDR set by the FDA for both folic acid and for Vitamin C were well below optimal.

Incidentally, Pauling, years before scoliosis of the spine in newborns was connected to folic acid deficiencies, said that the FDA's MDR for folic acid was woefully in error and needed to be much higher. An interesting main point of his lecture was that the FDA MDR values were set at the minimums to prevent disease, but for many of the vitamins, were far from optimal. He also believed that American medicine was way too conservative, and often said so.

Pauling won two Nobel prizes, and in my opinion came very close to winning four.

 

[college_trad3r]

Quote from Trader666:

No, the WHO rankings are a complete joke. And the WHO ranked the United States 37th, not 38th.

First of all... if that was an objective measure and the U.S. really was 37th, NO WAY would we also have the world's highest 5 year prostate and breast cancer survival rates.

Second, NO WAY would any of the following facts exist either:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

Finally, the attached 12 page paper exposes the WHO rankings for the subjective, logically incoherent, ideological load of BS that they are.

Healthcare in US is best in the world but only like 5-10% can afford that healthcare because of the huge cost. Alot of money goes to corporations and their CEO's and shareholders, who have replaced the government as the "bloodsuckers".

While in Canada the healthcare may not be the best but still top 10 but 90%+ of population has access to it.

It depends what you call the "best" healthcare.

When I look at these examples I would favor the canadian example, as it is much more humane in comparison.

 

[the4xczar]

Quote from college_trad3r:

Healthcare in US is best in the world but only like 5-10% can afford that healthcare because of the huge cost. Alot of money goes to corporations and their CEO's and shareholders, who have replaced the government as the "bloodsuckers".

While in Canada the healthcare may not be the best but still top 10 but 90%+ of population has access to it.

It depends what you call the "best" healthcare.

When I look at these examples I would favor the canadian example, as it is much more humane in comparison.

So you're saying that 90-95% of Americans don't have health care? Where in the Hell do you foreigners get your news??? You call us insular, then claim to know so much about the U.S. when in reality you people don't know s*^t about much of anything.

 

[tscoffee115]

Can you give some more sample question and answers. How great your info is! It really useful for me. Thanks.

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[Matt8200]

Quote from piezoe:


1. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is not an oxidizing agent. It is a reducing agent.

2. There is a substantial body of clinical studies done on Vitamin C. Much of it was done in England and usually involved massive doses.

It is both

How does it work: as an oxidizing agent massive amounts, i.e., 5-150 grams, intravenously, for certain pathological conditions, if allowed to run in rapidly (20 gauge needle), acts as a “Flash Oxidizer” and may correct the condition in minutes. It can be a reducing agent. It neutralized toxins, viruses and histamine. The more serious the condition, the more C is required.

It appears that Vitamin C acts as a reducing agent, an oxidizing agent, an anti-clotting agent, an antihistamine, and as an anti-infective agent.
http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm


Are these studies from England online? I was not aware of them.

 

[piezoe]

Quote from Matt8200:

It is both

How does it work: as an oxidizing agent massive amounts, i.e., 5-150 grams, intravenously, for certain pathological conditions, if allowed to run in rapidly (20 gauge needle), acts as a “Flash Oxidizer” and may correct the condition in minutes. It can be a reducing agent. It neutralized toxins, viruses and histamine. The more serious the condition, the more C is required.

It appears that Vitamin C acts as a reducing agent, an oxidizing agent, an anti-clotting agent, an antihistamine, and as an anti-infective agent.
http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm


Are these studies from England online? I was not aware of them.

I read a portion of the work apparently attributed to Dr. Klenner, who was not a chemist but a physician. I don't know for sure who wrote that material, possibly Klenner. If he did, he obviously did not understand ascorbic acid chemistry very well. Ascorbic acid does not act "as a flash oxidizer". It is a reducing agent (electron source) under physiological conditions, but may play other roles as well. When it acts as a reducing agent it becomes oxidized and is converted to dehydroascorbic acid. It is not an oxidizer.

Whatever you read that told you ascorbic acid is an oxidizing agent is incorrect.

I have never looked at the papers you asked about. I know of them only through Pauling. However, if you do a search of the British medical literature on ascorbic acid going back perhaps as early as the mid 1950's i'm certain you will turn them up. I seriously doubt if you will find them on the internet, but you might try Pub-med for later papers that might reference the British clinical studies. If you have access to a large University library you may be able to turn them up by using their Science Citation Index. Consult the reference librarian for instructions on how to use this search tool.

 

[fkbsuhites]

Those who mouth off on how we have the "best healthcare" are the ones who will never have access to the best.

They'll be left to die in the hospital waiting room because of no insurance.

 

[Matt8200]

I would agree that is main role is an reducing agent. Here is what Pauling writes in his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER:

"The ways in which ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) functions in the human body relate first to the fact that it engages on both sides of the universal oxidation-reduction reaction that subtracts or adds hydrogen atoms to a molecule. (Vitamin C) is readily oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid by the surrender, to oxidizing agents, of the two hydrogen atoms... [shown in the figure]

This action is readily reversible, for dehydroascorbic acid acts as a strong oxidizing agent, and by picking up two hydrogen atoms is reduced to ascorbic acid. It is likely that the reducing power of ascorbic acid and the oxidizing power of dehydroascorbic acid are responsible for some of the physiological properties of the substance."

 

[piezoe]

Quote from Matt8200:

I would agree that is main role is an reducing agent. Here is what Pauling writes in his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER:

"The ways in which ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) functions in the human body relate first to the fact that it engages on both sides of the universal oxidation-reduction reaction that subtracts or adds hydrogen atoms to a molecule. (Vitamin C) is readily oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid by the surrender, to oxidizing agents, of the two hydrogen atoms... [shown in the figure]

This action is readily reversible, for dehydroascorbic acid acts as a strong oxidizing agent, and by picking up two hydrogen atoms is reduced to ascorbic acid. It is likely that the reducing power of ascorbic acid and the oxidizing power of dehydroascorbic acid are responsible for some of the physiological properties of the substance."

Matt, let me explain to you how to interpret this since you obviously have a keen interest. And it is good that you are reading Pauling's book. That is a smart thing to do because Pauling was no kook. He knew his stuff.

Here is the deal. Ascorbic acid is a reducing agent and in the process of reducing something else (which means it furnishes electrons to whatever it reduces) it becomes oxidized. So the product of that reaction is dehydroascorbic acid, which is oxidized ascorbic acid. But the important thing is that dehydroascorbic acid is NOT ascorbic acid. It is a different molecule. Dehydroascorbic acid is the product of ascorbic acid after it has lost two electrons and two protons (protons are the same thing as a hydrogen atom minus its electron). This is exactly the same thing as saying ascorbic acid has lost two hydrogen atoms, which is the way Pauling explained the redox chemistry. Now, since dehydroascorbic acid is ascorobic acid that has lost electrons and two protons to some other molecule, it would "like to" get those electrons and protons back. In doing so it would act as an oxidizing agent (an oxidizing agent takes electrons from something else).

So it is ascorbic acid that is the reducing agent, and dehydroascorbic acid that is the oxidizing agent. When reacting, a reducing agent become oxidized, and oxidizing agents become reduced.

I hope that helps clear up this chemistry for you so you won't go around saying "ascorbic acid is an oxidizing agent". That would raise some eyebrows among science folks.