666...the Devils Moving Average

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from stu:

A local flood won't wash either, shoeshineboy!

If a local flood then how would God's judgement avenge itself on those people outside the Mesopotamian area? A local flood would have meant these folks gave God the slip.

Why were birds put on the ark if the flood was local? They could have easily flown their way to dry land and a convenient tree.

Genesis states the water rose above the mountains. As water finds its own level, it could not have done that only in Mesopotamia without spilling out into surrounding areas. Unless of course God did the Block Of Water miracle trick, but there is no mention of that in the Holy Babble.

And furthermore, what about the "We know where you live" threat by JC in Mathew
......"and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man".

So if the flood was local, a lot of "sinners" will get away with it again, as they seem to have done in the Mesopotamian local area idea.
This God of retribution seems to be either inefficient in his destruction processes or perhaps it is more likely the case that he does not really exist at all.
If the ark job is just a parable, is this a parable too ".....Be not affrighted Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified he is risen he is not here: behold the place where they laid him." Or does one personally choose which bit is and isn’t a parable?

I suggest at least one Ark load of "christians" would disagree that either are parables.

All men lived in Mesopotamia at the time. (Neanderthals have been shown through Mitochondria DNA testing to not be in our lineage.) A global flood was not necessary to kill all men if they all lived in the Mesopotomain area. Again, anthropology traditions attest dozens and dozens of times to this fact - it's not just Genesis.

"The mountains" refers to the known region at the time. This is common in the Bible. For example, Paul wrote in the New Testament that the gospel had been preached "in the whole world" when of course it hadn't gone to the pygmies. He meant throughout the Roman Empire which was the world as he knew it.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

And, by the way, it doesn't matter what most Christians believe to me: most of them think the ark is on Mt. Ararat when, in fact, the Bible says, I believe, the "mountians of Ararat"...

 

[Gordon Gekko]

ShoeshineBoy, why do you bother defending what is OBVIOUS NONSENSE?!?! unbelievable.....think objectively and see how fake all this stuff is. forget about it and throw it away like the trash it is.

it doesn't surprise me that people can be brainwashed into believing it, but the scale of it is SHOCKING. it's so sad in the year 2003 like 8-9 out of 10 people believe some bs religion. PATHETIC. this is insulting to the human race.

if advanced aliens came to earth and asked us what we thought about our origin, i'd be EMBARASSED if we told them this religious crap. i'd want to say to them, "no, no, no! we don't all think that way!"

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

ShoeshineBoy, why do you bother defending what is OBVIOUS NONSENSE?!?! unbelievable.....think objectively and see how fake all this stuff is.

I only jump in when I see people slamming theism. Theism is not illogical or unscientific. You can believe that all theists are idiots, but there are many much more trained and intelligent people than anyone on this board who see incredible evidence for design in the universe. They are not all Christians. And they do not go around calling everyone who is a skeptic or an atheist an idiot for his beliefs.

I don't for a minute think I'm going to "convert" anyone on et - all I can hope for is that someone out there will see that there is more to science than the liberal pabulum that is spoon fed into the typical Western educational systems. It is not as simple as you make it seem and if you stop and think about it, I'll bet that your arguments against theism are not based on science but upon your own observations and theories about religion, history and sociology....

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:



I only jump in when I see people slamming theism. Theism is not illogical or unscientific. You can believe that all theists are idiots, but there are many much more trained and intelligent people than anyone on this board who see incredible evidence for design in the universe. They are not all Christians. And they do not go around calling everyone who is a skeptic or an atheist an idiot for his beliefs.

I don't for a minute think I'm going to "convert" anyone on et - all I can hope for is that someone out there will see that there is more to science than the liberal pabulum that is spoon fed into the typical Western educational systems. It is not as simple as you make it seem and if you stop and think about it, I'll bet that your arguments against theism are not based on science but upon your own observations and theories about religion, history and sociology....

as a huge attacker of religion, i will be the FIRST to say not all religious people are idiots. that is not my claim at all. an intelligent person could be brainwashed as a child. they may still be intelligent, but they have been made to believe something that may not be true. this is why i am SO AGAINST suggesting religion at an early age to a child--but that's how religion works.

btw, yes, i'm aware some people become religious strictly on their own as an adult. there's always a few people who will do anything, whether it makes sense or not.

the expected response of a brainwashed person when confronted that they have been brainwashed is denial. if you go up to any brainwashed person, in whatever way they were brainwashed, tell them they were, they'll say, "what!? no i'm not!" that's what all you religious people are doing and it doesn't bother me because i know it is the expected response. it is what i expect you all to do.

many americans (i'm an american) laugh at the thought of suicide bombers thinking they get 72 virgins or whatever. THAT'S EXACTLY EQUAL TO YOU THINKING YOU'RE GOING TO "HEAVEN." if a christian or something tells a suicide bomber he doesn't really get 72 virgins, the suicide bomber will say, "you are not a believer--you are wrong. praise be to allah." that's the same as me telling a christian they're not going to heaven. i will get the same response.....something like, "you are wrong, praise the lord."

RID YOUR MIND OF RELIGIOUS CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND STOP POISONING YOUR CHILDREN, TOO!!

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Please, that's incredibly patronizing. Why can't we just stick to the issues instead of trash-talking? I presented several logical arguments - not proofs I admit - but logical arguments that a local Flood is supported by modern archaeological and anthropological evidences. You did not choose to discuss the science of it but instead said I believed in "nonsense", etc.

A brainwashed person avoids scientific and logical arguments and I am not the one doing that. Let me ask you this: have you ever had any one give you any good scientific arguments for theism? Obviously not. Then I ask who is brainwashed? It is apparently you that has only heard one side of the argument.

I am open minded. For example, if you could show me good, solid evidence for a steady state universe, I would listen. I wouldn't trash talk you as being "brainwashed" or believing in "nonsense.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Please, that's incredibly patronizing. Why can't we just stick to the issues instead of trash-talking? I presented several logical arguments - not proofs I admit - but logical arguments that a local Flood is supported by modern archaeological and anthropological evidences. You did not choose to discuss the science of it but instead said I believed in "nonsense", etc.

A brainwashed person avoids scientific and logical arguments and I am not the one doing that. Let me ask you this: have you ever had any one give you any good scientific arguments for theism? Obviously not. Then I ask who is brainwashed? It is apparently you that has only heard one side of the argument.

I am open minded. For example, if you could show me good, solid evidence for a steady state universe, I would listen. I wouldn't trash talk you as being "brainwashed" or believing in "nonsense.

hey listen..... i am OPEN TO BELIEVING ANYTHING!! i'll praise the lord today if he shows himself and does some tricks for me. however, i DO NOT blindly accept what i am told to believe--especially as a vulnerable child.

i'm not brainwashed into anything. i will accept whatever the facts point to. too bad most people can't do that. it's not really their fault, though. it's an endless cycle of taking kids to church.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

There is no way to flippantly explain by Darwinian evolution the major macroevolutionary transformations that supposedly occurred in 10 million years or less. There is no pat answer way to explain how life could originate in less a VERY short period of time on planet earth by random chemical processes (especially in a reducing environment). There is no way to easily explain the lack of transitional fossils. There is no easy way to explain how the universe, solar system and earth is VERY finely tuned with over 50 low probability characteristics to allow life down here.

I'm sorry, but these are tough issues that brilliant people, theistic and non-theistic, wrestle with and you can't just dismiss it as all "nonsense".

If a Christian dismisses your scientific arguments with "well you've just got to accept it by faith", I'm sure that drives you crazy. Well, to a Christian who believes in Intelligent Design, it is just as annoying for a non-theist to just dismiss the obvious scientific arguments on his side of the court.

I hope that makes sense...

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


hey listen..... i am OPEN TO BELIEVING ANYTHING!! i'll praise the lord today if he shows himself and does some tricks for me. however, i DO NOT blindly accept what i am told to believe--especially as a vulnerable child.

i'm not brainwashed into anything. i will accept whatever the facts point to. too bad most people can't do that. it's not really their fault, though. it's an endless cycle of taking kids to church.

C'mon! That also is avoiding the issues. Christianity is exploding in countries where it has never been before. In China there are now 60-100 million Christians by secular estimates. This argument does not bear up to the facts. Latin America is similar...You are basing your arguments on obviously being a Westerner where Christianity has long been established.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

There is no way to flippantly explain by Darwinian evolution the major macroevolutionary transformations that supposedly occurred in 10 million years or less. There is no pat answer way to explain how life could originate in less a VERY short period of time on planet earth by random chemical processes (especially in a reducing environment). There is no way to easily explain the lack of transitional fossils. There is no easy way to explain how the universe, solar system and earth is VERY finely tuned with over 50 low probability characteristics to allow life down here.

I'm sorry, but these are tough issues that brilliant people, theistic and non-theistic, wrestle with and you can't just dismiss it as all "nonsense".

If a Christian dismisses your scientific arguments with "well you've just got to accept it by faith", I'm sure that drives you crazy. Well, to a Christian who believes in Intelligent Design, it is just as annoying for a non-theist to just dismiss the obvious scientific arguments on his side of the court.

I hope that makes sense...

evolution is a fact. it may not be widely accepted yet as a fact, but any independent mind can see evolution is real. if you don't think so, i'm not going to explain it to you. learn about it yourself. anyone who denies evolution has serious issues.

btw, when i speak of evolution, i'm talking about the evolving of life over time. i'm not talking about abiogenesis (first living thing).

the following is a sincere offer to help you. religious or not, you will be a better person if you watch these DVDs (or tapes): http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/shop/index.html (this gets the GG seal of approval)