Still don't understand the pertinence of this.....I mean, if you take it that far then why not just say, God should not allow rain, snow , heat waves, cold waves, ...every day it should be 78 degrees with no clouds.....but then some will complain and say they have sunburn and he should have prevented that too LOL..the point is we were given this earth and we as all men were put in charge of it......WE should be working to prevent the innocent from dying or being hurt....that is the goal...That is what Jesus was trying to tell us.....he said its very hard for the Rich to get into heaven....he said that just living a 'good life' in which you pay for your family and go to church and follow the 10 commandments is not enough....you should be contributing to society....so it is really MAN"s responsibility to help protect the innocent.......BUT ,,,,,,,that being said, i will admit that as I hear of the horrors of mankind, I do question WHY?
666...the Devils Moving Average
- Thread starter crackhead
- Start date
When a police officer prevents your death NOW, by shooting
the criminal that is about to shoot you in the head, THAT
does not seem to be a problem right?
So the problem for THE POLICE OFFICER may be to prevent now and allow later or allow now.
Notice... if the police officer did NOT prevent your death NOW,
and stood idly by, and let the criminal take your life, he would
be in deep shit.
There is no problem. The police officer and god should do
the moral thing and prevent your death.
God could stop the bullet in midair for example, or a put a magic
force field around you.
In both cases, the criminal still had the free will of CHOICE to
pull the trigger and shoot at you.
peace
axeman
______________________
I don't want to put words in your mouth but are you saying there should never be any death? (of innocents, back to your example)
the criminal that is about to shoot you in the head, THAT
does not seem to be a problem right?
So the problem for THE POLICE OFFICER may be to prevent now and allow later or allow now.
Notice... if the police officer did NOT prevent your death NOW,
and stood idly by, and let the criminal take your life, he would
be in deep shit.
There is no problem. The police officer and god should do
the moral thing and prevent your death.
God could stop the bullet in midair for example, or a put a magic
force field around you.
In both cases, the criminal still had the free will of CHOICE to
pull the trigger and shoot at you.
peace
axeman
______________________
I don't want to put words in your mouth but are you saying there should never be any death? (of innocents, back to your example)
"I mean, if you take it that far then why not just say, God should not allow rain, snow , heat waves, cold waves, "
What does this have to do with the discussion?
Nothing. Im discussing a supposedly moral god allowing
innocents to die when he has the power to do something about it
without robbing anyone of free will.
"......WE should be working to prevent the innocent from dying or being hurt....that is the goal."
Why is god exempt?
Why should only WE be responsible for preventing innocent deaths?
If you were superman, born with incredible powers, would you
sit idly by and let innocents die when you could prevent it?
Does POWER somehow exempt you from doing what is
morally right?
This makes NO sense.
peace
axeman
What does this have to do with the discussion?
Nothing. Im discussing a supposedly moral god allowing
innocents to die when he has the power to do something about it
without robbing anyone of free will.
"......WE should be working to prevent the innocent from dying or being hurt....that is the goal."
Why is god exempt?
Why should only WE be responsible for preventing innocent deaths?
If you were superman, born with incredible powers, would you
sit idly by and let innocents die when you could prevent it?
Does POWER somehow exempt you from doing what is
morally right?
This makes NO sense.
peace
axeman
"ANSWER: Innocent people die in car accidents, heat waves ect...we will have no free will as mankind if every event is goign to be determined and altered by god."
Strawman. Irrelevant. This is not the case im arguing.
Address the kids falling off the cliff example as you sit idly by.
axeman:Why is god exempt?
Why should only WE be responsible for preventing innocent deaths?
"ANSWER: THis is OUR world...WE should not be killing each other....if MANKIND would control itself, ther would be no need for intervention correct?"
Strawman. Irrelevant.
Ownership of the earth does not justify anyone standing idly
by and allowing innocent death he could prevent.
Axeman:If you were superman, born with incredible powers, would you
sit idly by and let innocents die when you could prevent it?
Does POWER somehow exempt you from doing what is
morally right?
"Good point....so ...how many people have you saved? have you helped the innocent children in 3rd world countries? in your own city? Most likley no, ( and me neither)....we DO have the power to stop this but WE DON"T...and if God was just going to wave a wand and have all crime stopped, all deaths stopped.....would you bother getting out of bed in the morning?"
Strawman. Diversionary tactic. Let's stick to my case shall we?
If you are DIRECTLY in a position to save a life, and do NOT,
a court would hold you negligent.
Courts dont send you to jail because you didnt send $1000
to africa last month that COULD have saved some lives.
A court WOULD send you to jail if you sat idly by and let
those kids run off the cliff into an obvious trap you were
aware of and could have prevented.
My case still stands TM. Try agian...
peace
axeman
Strawman. Irrelevant. This is not the case im arguing.
Address the kids falling off the cliff example as you sit idly by.
axeman:Why is god exempt?
Why should only WE be responsible for preventing innocent deaths?
"ANSWER: THis is OUR world...WE should not be killing each other....if MANKIND would control itself, ther would be no need for intervention correct?"
Strawman. Irrelevant.
Ownership of the earth does not justify anyone standing idly
by and allowing innocent death he could prevent.
Axeman:If you were superman, born with incredible powers, would you
sit idly by and let innocents die when you could prevent it?
Does POWER somehow exempt you from doing what is
morally right?
"Good point....so ...how many people have you saved? have you helped the innocent children in 3rd world countries? in your own city? Most likley no, ( and me neither)....we DO have the power to stop this but WE DON"T...and if God was just going to wave a wand and have all crime stopped, all deaths stopped.....would you bother getting out of bed in the morning?"
Strawman. Diversionary tactic. Let's stick to my case shall we?
If you are DIRECTLY in a position to save a life, and do NOT,
a court would hold you negligent.
Courts dont send you to jail because you didnt send $1000
to africa last month that COULD have saved some lives.
A court WOULD send you to jail if you sat idly by and let
those kids run off the cliff into an obvious trap you were
aware of and could have prevented.
My case still stands TM. Try agian...
peace
axeman
I don't know how much clearer I can be....i also don't understand why everytime you are presented with a solid argument, you just shrug it off as strawman or irrelevant??? Just because you feel that way doesn't make it so....
You seem obsessed with the idea that god sits idly by and lets innocent kids fall of a cliff....I have presented argument after argument, that he does not , but you just shrug it off by saying irrelevant....so let's try this one more time and if you still don't get it I don't think theres any point in arguing it further:
God does not let us fall off a cliff
God does not in my opinion interfere in the events on earth, save for one time because humanity was crying out to him to help them be more god like.
if a child FALLS off a cliff, it is MANKIND'S responsibility
We have inherited this earth....Why God does not wave a hand and save everybody ? as i said before i have my questions, but free will is not just the decision to jump off a bridge or not...Its helping others, its making a difference to mankind instead of turning the other way and asking God to do it for you .
You seem obsessed with the idea that god sits idly by and lets innocent kids fall of a cliff....I have presented argument after argument, that he does not , but you just shrug it off by saying irrelevant....so let's try this one more time and if you still don't get it I don't think theres any point in arguing it further:
God does not let us fall off a cliff
God does not in my opinion interfere in the events on earth, save for one time because humanity was crying out to him to help them be more god like.
if a child FALLS off a cliff, it is MANKIND'S responsibility
We have inherited this earth....Why God does not wave a hand and save everybody ? as i said before i have my questions, but free will is not just the decision to jump off a bridge or not...Its helping others, its making a difference to mankind instead of turning the other way and asking God to do it for you .
I am in no way shrugging it off.
I am properly labeling it a strawman and therefore irrelevant
BECAUSE IT IS by definition.
If you don't know what a strawman is, i'll be happy to explain.
You have consistently failed to attack MY argument and instead
attack OTHER arguments.
You could make it clearer by addressing MY argument.
"if a child FALLS off a cliff, it is MANKIND'S responsibility"
This is a statement, not an argument.
You have NOT explained why god is any different than the
good man standing by the doorway or STOPS the children
from falling to their death.
Earths ownership is not relevant. How could it be?
Do humans charge god with trespassing if he comes down
to help children or something so he stays away?
"Why God does not wave a hand and save everybody ? "
Strawman. Once again...this is NOT my case.
peace
axeman
I am properly labeling it a strawman and therefore irrelevant
BECAUSE IT IS by definition.
If you don't know what a strawman is, i'll be happy to explain.
You have consistently failed to attack MY argument and instead
attack OTHER arguments.
You could make it clearer by addressing MY argument.
"if a child FALLS off a cliff, it is MANKIND'S responsibility"
This is a statement, not an argument.
You have NOT explained why god is any different than the
good man standing by the doorway or STOPS the children
from falling to their death.
Earths ownership is not relevant. How could it be?
Do humans charge god with trespassing if he comes down
to help children or something so he stays away?
"Why God does not wave a hand and save everybody ? "
Strawman. Once again...this is NOT my case.
peace
axeman
Quote from axeman:
I am in no way shrugging it off.
I am properly labeling it a strawman and therefore irrelevant
BECAUSE IT IS by definition.
If you don't know what a strawman is, i'll be happy to explain.
You have consistently failed to attack MY argument and instead
attack OTHER arguments.
You could make it clearer by addressing MY argument.
"if a child FALLS off a cliff, it is MANKIND'S responsibility"
This is a statement, not an argument.
You have NOT explained why god is any different than the
good man standing by the doorway or STOPS the children
from falling to their death.
Earths ownership is not relevant. How could it be?
Do humans charge god with trespassing if he comes down
to help children or something so he stays away?
"Why God does not wave a hand and save everybody ? "
Strawman. Once again...this is NOT my case.
peace
axeman
i can't make it any clearer.....you just don't want to read what i am saying.....Mankind is responsible for the events on earth....we either want total free will or we don't .....this is our earth....This clif you keep talking about .....even though its hypothetical, i would say that its mankind responsibility to not put doors on the edge of a cliff....and then if a kid opens the door anyway, man should stop him... and if the kid falls to his death...man is responsible...but the child, innocent as they are , will find greater reward in heaven for eternity with their creator.....we should not fear death but should look forward to it but as humans its hard to do....but a glimpse of free will life on earth is nothing compared to eternity....while we feel God lloked the other way, has it occurred to yo that God was taking the child home?? and thats why he didn't interfere?
Why do I bother?
I DO read what you are saying.
And in fact, I even understand it.
But you simply seem logically challenged because
you cant see the obvious flaws in your logic even
after I very carefully point them out.
This seems to be a communication problem, because you
do not seem to be familiar with critical thinking and logic.
When I post a specific case, and you consistently fail to address
the case, AND INSTEAD, make up a new unrelated case and
address that INSTEAD....and THEN... claim that im not reading
what your writing, WHAT conclusion should I draw????
"Mankind is responsible for the events on earth"
This is an assertion. You have not explained why god
gets a free ride and is responsible for nothing.
"we either want total free will or we don't "
You have failed to explain how there is no free will in
the case I have proposed. Free will is the ability to CHOOSE
your own actions. No one in my example was controlled
like a little robot by god. There IS free will.
I also carefully explained how the good man does not NIX
the free will of the evil man by undoing the trap he set.
This applies in the same way to god. Free will is NOT nixed.
".. i would say that its mankind responsibility to not put doors on the edge of a cliff....and then if a kid opens the door anyway, man should stop him... and if the kid falls to his death...man is responsible..."
So here you AGREE with my example as long as it contains men only.
Now you have to explain *****WHY******* when I replace the
good man with god:
1) How it invalidates free will
2) Why god should not be held responsible
3) Why god should not be allowed to do this.
You have not done this to date.
My case remains perfectly valid.
"while we feel God lloked the other way, has it occurred to yo that God was taking the child home?? and thats why he didn't interfere?"
This does not give god a get out of jail free card.
The child still had to suffer a horrible death.
God is STILL responsible for the childs death even if he
then takes the child to heaven.
If you really believe this you must be consistent with your
belief. You would have to apply this to man as well.
So when the man stood idly by, and let the children run
off the cliff to their deaths, you would have to NOT hold
him responsible, because we know the innocent children
will go to heaven.
This is not the case. YOU would send the man to jail for
manslaughter.
You can't have it both ways.
peace
axeman
I DO read what you are saying.
And in fact, I even understand it.
But you simply seem logically challenged because
you cant see the obvious flaws in your logic even
after I very carefully point them out.
This seems to be a communication problem, because you
do not seem to be familiar with critical thinking and logic.
When I post a specific case, and you consistently fail to address
the case, AND INSTEAD, make up a new unrelated case and
address that INSTEAD....and THEN... claim that im not reading
what your writing, WHAT conclusion should I draw????
"Mankind is responsible for the events on earth"
This is an assertion. You have not explained why god
gets a free ride and is responsible for nothing.
"we either want total free will or we don't "
You have failed to explain how there is no free will in
the case I have proposed. Free will is the ability to CHOOSE
your own actions. No one in my example was controlled
like a little robot by god. There IS free will.
I also carefully explained how the good man does not NIX
the free will of the evil man by undoing the trap he set.
This applies in the same way to god. Free will is NOT nixed.
".. i would say that its mankind responsibility to not put doors on the edge of a cliff....and then if a kid opens the door anyway, man should stop him... and if the kid falls to his death...man is responsible..."
So here you AGREE with my example as long as it contains men only.
Now you have to explain *****WHY******* when I replace the
good man with god:
1) How it invalidates free will
2) Why god should not be held responsible
3) Why god should not be allowed to do this.
You have not done this to date.
My case remains perfectly valid.
"while we feel God lloked the other way, has it occurred to yo that God was taking the child home?? and thats why he didn't interfere?"
This does not give god a get out of jail free card.
The child still had to suffer a horrible death.
God is STILL responsible for the childs death even if he
then takes the child to heaven.
If you really believe this you must be consistent with your
belief. You would have to apply this to man as well.
So when the man stood idly by, and let the children run
off the cliff to their deaths, you would have to NOT hold
him responsible, because we know the innocent children
will go to heaven.
This is not the case. YOU would send the man to jail for
manslaughter.
You can't have it both ways.
peace
axeman
Well im not going to explain it anymore because 1) im the one who brought up the subject of a so called free ride from movie i saw 2) I thin i have explained my position in undeniable detail and i cannot answer for God on every subject, try as I may...but I believe my points were clear and concise and if you a) disagree or b) don't understand , then there is nothing more for me to say.....but your starting to take the high road again and imply that i don't know critical thinking ect....so im going to just back off here too.....it makes no sense to start exchanging barbs with you and we are going to have to agree to disagree....but im going to pray for you tonight anyway just to piss you off
peace
tm
peace
tm