666...the Devils Moving Average

TM_Direct · Oct 14, 2003

Axe:

That is a very simplistic way of looking at God......Benevolent does not mean he is going to prevent us from falling off a cliff, getting into a car accident ect......benevolent means that in the afterlife we will be judged by a benevolent creator.....Now i ask you this: Do you believe in free will of man? Your image of a benevolent God would be like Bill Murray in 'Ground Hog Day"....if no matter what you did you wouldn't die, what would society be like? unfortunately part of the joy of life is knowing the totality of it all...we cherish life because its so precious...thats why when there is a murder, we want to sentence the killer to life in prison to deny him the freedoms he took away....In addition, you will NEVER appreciate life as much as somebody who has had a brush with death...Talk to a cancer survivor,,,,,talk to me... Ive been on that brink before and you never realize how awesome it is to feel air on your face if you've faced the opposite...While I would prefer God to protect every living creature every day, that is not the case.....he's given us the playground to play in and the free will to choose....life can be chicken shit or chicken salad and judging by the way the world is right now, i think the chicken salad may be turning sour.

axeman · Oct 14, 2003

You dodged my main point of contention.

How does a baby have the FREE WILL to NOT get on the bus his mom put him on?

Free will alone cannot do away with the problem.

Earthquakes kill infants in their cribs.

How does a babies free will make this OK somehow?

peace

axeman

Quote from TM_Direct:

Axe:

That is a very simplistic way of looking at God......Benevolent does not mean he is going to prevent us from falling off a cliff, getting into a car accident ect......benevolent means that in the afterlife we will be judged by a benevolent creator.....Now i ask you this: Do you believe in free will of man? Your image of a benevolent God would be like Bill Murray in 'Ground Hog Day"....if no matter what you did you wouldn't die, what would society be like? unfortunately part of the joy of life is knowing the totality of it all...we cherish life because its so precious...thats why when there is a murder, we want to sentence the killer to life in prison to deny him the freedoms he took away....In addition, you will NEVER appreciate life as much as somebody who has had a brush with death...Talk to a cancer survivor,,,,,talk to me... Ive been on that brink before and you never realize how awesome it is to feel air on your face if you've faced the opposite...While I would prefer God to protect every living creature every day, that is not the case.....he's given us the playground to play in and the free will to choose....life can be chicken shit or chicken salad and judging by the way the world is right now, i think the chicken salad may be turning sour.

TM_Direct · Oct 14, 2003

Quote from axeman:

You dodged my main point of contention.

How does a baby have the FREE WILL to NOT get on the bus his mom put him on?

Free will alone cannot do away with the problem.

Earthquakes kill infants in their cribs.

How does a babies free will make this OK somehow?

peace

axeman

When i referred to 'free will' i was referring to mankind as a whole....i didn't dodge, i answered it by telling you that he set up the playground......now its up to us to play nice.....and whether an infant is killed or not, how does this play into your notion that their is no god?? because infants regrettably perish? is that going to be your standard for accepting God or is this a diversion?

axeman · Oct 14, 2003

No...what I am saying is that if the following are true:

1) God is not powerless
2) God is benevolent

Then HE is just as responsible for an innocet babies death
as you would be if you let all those kids fall to their death.

A benevolent entity, with the power to prevent a childs
death, who stands by and does nothing is GUILTY of manslaughter
and therefore NOT benevolent.

I never said that this means there is no god.

peace

axeman

Quote from TM_Direct:

When i referred to 'free will' i was referring to mankind as a whole....i didn't dodge, i answered it by telling you that he set up the playground......now its up to us to play nice.....and whether an infant is killed or not, how does this play into your notion that their is no god?? because infants regrettably perish? is that going to be your standard for accepting God or is this a diversion?

TM_Direct · Oct 14, 2003

Quote from axeman:

No...what I am saying is that if the following are true:

1) God is not powerless
2) God is benevolent

Then HE is just as responsible for an innocent babies death
as you would be if you let all those kids fall to their death.

A benevolent entity, with the power to prevent a child
death, who stands by and does nothing is GUILTY of manslaughter
and therefore NOT benevolent.

I never said that this means there is no god.

peace

axeman

Well if you are going to hold him responsible that is fine, but remember, the lord giveth and the lord can taketh away...he is also responsible for the enormous life here on earth and while we all believe that we should live forever and ever, that is not the case...So yes God is responsible for our life and death...as our creator, should that not be his right?

axeman · Oct 14, 2003

"...should that not be his right?"

The point I was making is that he is NOT benevolent.

Your question is on an entirely different subject.

Assuming he exists.... this opens another can of worms.
If I were Dr Frankenstein, and created a new form of life,
does the fact that I created it, give me the right to kill it?

I'm not so sure.

But back to the original point.
God, if he exists, and is not powerless, is not benevolent.
I think ive made my case.

peace

axeman

Quote from TM_Direct:

Well if you are going to hold him responsible that is fine, but remember, the lord giveth and the lord can taketh away...he is also responsible for the enormous life here on earth and while we all believe that we should live forever and ever, that is not the case...So yes God is responsible for our life and death...as our creator, should that not be his right?

TM_Direct · Oct 14, 2003

Quote from axeman:

"...should that not be his right?"

The point I was making is that he is NOT benevolent.

Your question is on an entirely different subject.

Assuming he exists.... this opens another can of worms.
If I were Dr Frankenstein, and created a new form of life,
does the fact that I created it, give me the right to kill it?

I'm not so sure.

But back to the original point.
God, if he exists, and is not powerless, is not benevolent.
I think ive made my case.

peace

axeman

why is he not benevolent??? You did not make any point...he created life...he gave this wonderful gift to us.....and then offers us eternal salvation and joy even in the face of death....that is not benevolence? Stop concentrating on your earthly life for a moment and ponder an eternity with your creator?? Not a bad trade off is it? You also assume that it is up to him to use his power to control each and every person's fate....this is not true...I already explained that if he did that, nobody would die, nobody will grow old and we would not be having this debate because then and only then you would be a believer.

LongShot · Oct 14, 2003

Quote from TM_Direct:

why is he not benevolent??? You did not make any point...he created life...he gave this wonderful gift to us.....and then offers us eternal salvation and joy even in the face of death....that is not benevolence? Stop concentrating on your earthly life for a moment and ponder an eternity with your creator?? Not a bad trade off is it? You also assume that it is up to him to use his power to control each and every person's fate....this is not true...I already explained that if he did that, nobody would die, nobody will grow old and we would not be having this debate because then and only then you would be a believer.

so whats so wrong with letting us all live happy healthy wealthy forever?

axeman · Oct 14, 2003

I already explained why he is not benevolent.

Anyone who stands idly by, and does not prevent an innocent
childs death, when they are perfectly capable of doing so
IS NOT BENEVOLENT.

It sounds like your making the excuse, that he still is
since he has done other "nice things".

But it doesn't work that way.

The judge could care less if you had given to charity the day before.
If you let the kids die, you would be held responsible for their
deaths and would NOT be benevolent by any measure.

"You also assume that it is up to him to use his power to control each and every person's fate....this is not true...I already explained that if he did that, nobody would die, nobody will grow old and we would not be having this debate because then and only then you would be a believer."

Not true at all. I could EASILY be a responsible god, and save
innocent children WHO DID NOT HAVE THE FREE WILL to make
the choice which got them killed, and STILL allow for people
to make mistakes which get them killed.

If I were god and created the universe, and then a man
decided to drink and drive and killed himself, HIS free will
got him killed and I cant be held responsible.

However, If I let a BABY, get run over by a lava flow, there is NO
way I can claim the baby had free will to avoid the lava flow.
Secondly... I had the power to save the baby, and stood
idly by, there is no way anyone could claim that I am benevolent.

peace

axeman

Quote from TM_Direct:

why is he not benevolent??? You did not make any point...he created life...he gave this wonderful gift to us.....and then offers us eternal salvation and joy even in the face of death....that is not benevolence? Stop concentrating on your earthly life for a moment and ponder an eternity with your creator?? Not a bad trade off is it? You also assume that it is up to him to use his power to control each and every person's fate....this is not true...I already explained that if he did that, nobody would die, nobody will grow old and we would not be having this debate because then and only then you would be a believer.

TM_Direct · Oct 14, 2003

Quote from axeman:

I already explained why he is not benevolent.

Anyone who stands idly by, and does not prevent an innocent
childs death, when they are perfectly capable of doing so
IS NOT BENEVOLENT.

It sounds like your making the excuse, that he still is
since he has done other "nice things".

But it doesn't work that way.

The judge could care less if you had given to charity the day before.
If you let the kids die, you would be held responsible for their
deaths and would NOT be benevolent by any measure.

"You also assume that it is up to him to use his power to control each and every person's fate....this is not true...I already explained that if he did that, nobody would die, nobody will grow old and we would not be having this debate because then and only then you would be a believer."

Not true at all. I could EASILY be a responsible god, and save
innocent children WHO DID NOT HAVE THE FREE WILL to make
the choice which got them killed, and STILL allow for people
to make mistakes which get them killed.

If I were god and created the universe, and then a man
decided to drink and drive and killed himself, HIS free will
got him killed and I cant be held responsible.

However, If I let a BABY, get run over by a lava flow, there is NO
way I can claim the baby had free will to avoid the lava flow.
Secondly... I had the power to save the baby, and stood
idly by, there is no way anyone could claim that I am benevolent.

peace

axeman

You unfortunately are not God so to even try to comprehend how or why he acts is impossible. God doesn't let babys get run over by lava flows...or drunk guys get into car accidents...this is the world he set up for us to live in....benevolence I said earlier was in the after life....stop thinking small...an innocent baby that dies is a horrible event but compared to an eternity in the love of God presence????? Jesus often spoke of how we were too consumed with this life and if we only knew the rewards of the heavens we wouldn't be so concerned about our earthly life.....but that is what makes us human i guess....we were given this gift to live on this marvelous earth for a very short time, and in return, we spend eternity in the light of God...again though, since you do not believe in God it is very hard for you to understand this concept and where i am coming from.