666...the Devils Moving Average

[alfonso]

Quote from axeman:


I already clearly stated this is about intelligent design. STICK TO THE SUBJECT and
drop the diversions.

Lol. Go play with Gordon Gekko, you're about on his level.

If you don't understand that this is PRECISELY to do with ID, then you are either extremely badly informed on the issue or too stupid to understand it.

In all honesty axe, that was a pretty crap explanation. I know you can do better than that and I know that better "explanations" exist -- I mean, I do actually try and follow these debates between IDers and naturalists (although they can get beyond me, with jargon and concepts) -- so if are going to make an honest attempt at talking about it then get a clue about it. Otherwise I'll regard this as simply more standard fare axeman pseudo-debunkery.

 

[axeman]

"We're stalemated. The universe looks designed but I cannot absolutely prove it.
"

You are in fact conceding. There is no stalemate here, since I am not asserting that an intelligent designer did NOT create us.

It is your job to prove ID, not my job to disprove it.

No one can prove I am not god, this does not make me god.

No one can prove that zeus did NOT exist, this does not prove that he did.

The weak atheists position is non-belief (the default for everything) based on lack of proof. That's it.



peace

axeman

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:



I conceded that point on p. 32. I admit that it's not a proof.

Again, we're at the point of my previous post:

"Here's my assessment of our seeming stalemate. We have all walked into a room and found a watch (yes, I'm going to the watchmaker example). I observe that it has many intricate moving parts none of which can be modified in even the slightest degree if the watch is going to continue running. I was astonished and want to meet the watchmaker. You on the other hand wonder if the watch could not have arrived there by some other more random, "inanimate" process.

I cannot of course prove to you that the watch was designed and fashioned by a watchmaker because I did not video tape the event. And so we are at a stalemate. But that is not too surprising to me because, after all, there is always an element of faith to religious belief."

We're stalemated. The universe looks designed but I cannot absolutely prove it.

My point is simply that not all theistic arguments can be dismissed as "silly" as many posters on et assume.

 

[axeman]

Your post is nothing more than a childish attack on my debating ability.

You have completely failed to address my argument in ANY WAY, and
instead have chosen to make unsupported assertions,
and wave your magic wand and dismiss it outright
based on NADA. You can label it "crap" all you like, but until you
explain WHY it is crap, your are spouting nothing more than
drivel and pure unsupported opinion.


Good job.
Thanks for showing us what your made of.

My reply clearly showed why selection does not REQUIRE any intelligence at all.

What have you given us? Ad hominem attacks. Not a shred more.


Bravo. You are a fine debater. NOT!



peace

axeman

Quote from alfonso:





Lol. Go play with Gordon Gekko, you're about on his level.

If you don't understand that this is PRECISELY to do with ID, then you are either extremely badly informed on the issue or too stupid to understand it.

In all honesty axe, that was a pretty crap explanation. I know you can do better than that and I know that better "explanations" exist -- I mean, I do actually try and follow these debates between IDers and naturalists (although they can get beyond me, with jargon and concepts) -- so if are going to make an honest attempt at talking about it then get a clue about it. Otherwise I'll regard this as simply more standard fare axeman pseudo-debunkery.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from axeman:

"We're stalemated. The universe looks designed but I cannot absolutely prove it.
"

You are in fact conceding. There is no stalemate here, since I am not asserting that an intelligent designer did NOT create us.

It is your job to prove ID, not my job to disprove it.

No one can prove I am not god, this does not make me god.

No one can prove that zeus did NOT exist, this does not prove that he did.

The weak atheists position is non-belief (the default for everything) based on lack of proof. That's it.



peace

axeman

Actually, I don't want to prove ID, I only want to prove that ID is one valid interpretation of the cosmos. And you're right now that I think about it: you have not asserted that an intelligent designer did not create us. But others have very aggressively. There are frequent references on et to the theistic position being nonsense, etc., etc., etc. My apologies if I was "barking up the wrong tree"...

 

[axeman]

I believe werewolves existing is nonsense, because there is no evidence.

But I do not assert that they do NOT exist.

See the difference?

Anyone who asserts that an intelligent designer did NOT create us, is more than likely wrong. Proving a negative is nearly impossible, unless your in a domain like math, etc.

The only way you could prove that an intelligent designer does NOT exist, is to do an exhaustive search of the universe, which is not possible.

Same for werewolves, and same for zeus.


peace

axeman

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


Actually, I don't want to prove ID, I only want to prove that ID is one valid interpretation of the cosmos. And you're right now that I think about it: you have not asserted that an intelligent designer did not create us. But others have very aggressively. There are frequent references on et to the theistic position being nonsense, etc., etc., etc. My apologies if I was "barking up the wrong tree"...

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from stu:

First let me say that, of the examples you cite, surely you must agree to a point at least that axeman really does give some extremely eloquent and well laid out argument. Gordon Gekko raises very good points, even if rather energetically - you can't condemn someone for that. Yes there is the LMAO!!! but I have to laugh my arse off many times at GG or FPC or vinny nolan's etc outrageously irreverent comments.

yeah, see, stu knows what's up!

i have no trouble admitting i don't technically argue the best. i'm not trying win a debate in a technical sense--i leave that for axeman and stu. i just like to make my points and annoy my opposition.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from ElCubano:

And as far a science goes GG..... Findings today may not be true tomm...

i don't disagree with that. that's part of science. you do the best you can until there is something better.

 

[TM_Direct]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


i don't disagree with that. that's part of science. you do the best you can until there is something better.

that sounds like my old Dating philosophy!

 

[TM_Direct]

Quote from stu:

No you have not shown that shoeshine, not at all....

How planets form is very well scientifically documented and Genesis does not fit with it.

The solar system is understood to have formed from the compression of gases causing super cosmic heating.

The Sun and the planets are said to have evolved from the remains of (an) exploded star(s)

Early solid celestial debris, small asteroids and meteorites impacted Earth, keeping it in an already molten state.

Heat caused by impact managed to keep the Earth in a molten state. The estimate is the Earth was 1000 degrees Celsius. If God was to create as in Genesis says he did he had to do it here.

BUT... the rate of cooling was slower than the rate of heating and Earth then got hotter stillover a period of around 1 billion years.

Hot enough to melt iron at 500 miles above the surface. The centre of the earth is estimated to be 5500°C today.Volcanos back this up at even the most superficial level. Iron melts at 1535°C.

There was NO atmosphere (no "Firmament"). There was NO water.

Sunrise to sunset was somewhere around 2 hours, Earth was rotating approx every 5 hours. There were no days as we know them now, NOR as the novelists who wrote Genesis knew them.

Iron is heavy, it sinks , displacing lighter elements known in 'astronomical and archaeological record' (scientific terms) as "planetary differentiation".

Gases then escaped to form an outer atmosphere and then the oceans. This all took a very, very, very, long time in human context.

There is no place for God to do a Genesis job to the Earth. This is not an insult to Jews or "Christians" as you assert. It is the best science available.

Science which explains why things are as they are. Some more info is missing yet on the biggest question, but my contention is that only scientific endeavor will find out what it is.

Everything you just mentioned leaves me convinced that Science is just a good guess....if the earth rotated every 5 hours......then why is it now 24?.....according to the theory of relativity....why would is slow down ?...and who was there to clock the earths rotations? ..or for that matter...has anyone ever take the temperature of the famouse earth core? I don;t think so...

In addition, we have NO IDEDA how the earth was formed....if all these things just happened to come together like this from an exploding star....would % averages dictate that there should be other live galaxies out there? Look up at the sky and see how many stars there are....yet we are the only ones with life??? why? what a waste os space other stars explode all the time....Im still waiting for somebody to explain to me how if all these things came together to form earth occurred and if plants and cells just formed.....why would it not happen again after the dinosaurs went extinct from this alledged asteroid hit 100 million years ago???? shouldn't the dinosaurs redveloped and reappeared again, becuase scientifially all the elements would have remained the same on earth?????

we are so small

 

[axeman]

"Everything you just mentioned leaves me convinced that Science is just a good guess...."

Far superior to a complete fabrication, as in a creation story.

"Good guesses" are known as hypothesis in science.
Good guesses with at least some good supporting evidence, are called theories.
Good guesses which have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt are known as fact.

Explainations on how the earth was formed probably falls into the theory category. Evidence +good guess. But some probably falls in the fact category as well.



"if the earth rotated every 5 hours......then why is it now 24?.....according to the theory of relativity....why would is slow down ?...and who was there to clock the earths rotations? "

How does the theory of relativity imply the earth can't slow down?
In fact, there are numerous sources that show the earth is in fact slowing down.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/rotate.html


"..or for that matter...has anyone ever take the temperature of the famouse earth core? I don;t think so..."

Do we need to? Are you claiming the it is impossible to discover things without directly sampling them?

Do math and physics NOT allow us to detect invisible objects in space by their gravitational effect on nearby objects?


"In addition, we have NO IDEDA how the earth was formed...."

Absolutely false. So your claiming that all modern data that has been collected
by numerous means is simply totally fabricated or incorrect????


"if all these things just happened to come together like this from an exploding star....would % averages dictate that there should be other live galaxies out there? "

No.
We cannot determine probabilities without knowing all the variables.


" Look up at the sky and see how many stars there are....yet we are the only ones with life??? why? "

Who claims we are the only ones?
We simply don't know.

" what a waste os space other stars explode all the time....Im still waiting for somebody to explain to me how if all these things came together to form earth occurred and if plants and cells just formed.....why would it not happen again after the dinosaurs went extinct from this alledged asteroid hit 100 million years ago???? "

What mechanism guarantees the exact same life forms should appear?
Who claims this?

" shouldn't the dinosaurs redveloped and reappeared again, becuase scientifially all the elements would have remained the same on earth?????"

Not necessarily.
This implies that only a single kind of life can randomly spawn in a set of conditions. This has never been proven.



"we are so small"

LOL.... it's all relative.
Your body is an entire universe in itself
Your HUGE compared to most things in the universe.


In any case. This is NOT about intelligent design.

You should start another thread about science, and attack it there.



peace

axeman

Quote from TM_Direct:




Everything you just mentioned leaves me convinced that Science is just a good guess....if the earth rotated every 5 hours......then why is it now 24?.....according to the theory of relativity....why would is slow down ?...and who was there to clock the earths rotations? ..or for that matter...has anyone ever take the temperature of the famouse earth core? I don;t think so...

In addition, we have NO IDEDA how the earth was formed....if all these things just happened to come together like this from an exploding star....would % averages dictate that there should be other live galaxies out there? Look up at the sky and see how many stars there are....yet we are the only ones with life??? why? what a waste os space other stars explode all the time....Im still waiting for somebody to explain to me how if all these things came together to form earth occurred and if plants and cells just formed.....why would it not happen again after the dinosaurs went extinct from this alledged asteroid hit 100 million years ago???? shouldn't the dinosaurs redveloped and reappeared again, becuase scientifially all the elements would have remained the same on earth?????

we are so small