$52k gone from my IB account. What next, sue IB?

[OldTrader]

Quote from traderNik:

I have to believe that if a trader knows he's in a mistaken position, it's his responsibility to get out now and ask questions later. If it turns out that the OP could have gotten out completely and decided to try to get cute with the position, he is going to be out of luck with IB. However, as RAY points out, how does IB prove that the trader was aware of the position just because he is logged in. Does TWS auto-log screen toggling? No way...

It will also be very interesting to see what the OP says about the idea that the whole problem was caused by a double click on order entry. Expensive fat fingers. There's gotta be a mouse setting that mitigates the risk of that kind of thing. Link to trading-optimized mice, anyone?

As long as I've been in this business, it's always been the correct practice to immediately close out errors. You don't play the market with them.

Likewise, I'd say it's the traders responsibility to BE aware of the position when he logs in. In other words, you just don't log in and stare idly your first screen. How about open up your account page, check your balance, your positions, etc etc. I do that every time I log in, AND I do it just before I log out to make sure something isn't sitting there I don't want.

I think there is a proper expectation that traders are business-like and responsible with their accounts. Certainly, IB shouldn't be exposed to market risk just because a trader fails to check out his account on a timely basis.

OldTrader

 

[One]

Oldtrader and TraderNik,

It seems you guys are right that the double order in conjunction with the software glitch caused the problem.

But in fairness to the OP, since he seemed to have been monitoring his positions and outstanding orders, is it reasonable to assume that if the software had handled the double order correctly he would have noticed and cancelled the second order before the problem, at least to this extent, occurred?

 

[Tums]

Quote from IBj:

OK, here it finally is:

...

[*]The double click of the client was an error but so what. It is not reasonable to expect someone to recognize this extraordinarily arcane situation. The TWS was patched to prevent this about a week after the problem was reported to the developers.[*]

The TWS susceptible to double click is the problem that set off this unfortunate event.

I have noticed the TWS was very sensitive. I often click on a tab, and sent the page detached.

IB should own up to the origin of the problem, and not to further aggravate the customer by nickel and dime a "small" sum (in IB's eyes) to death. This customer has already suffered the lost of a whole month's trading.

 

[GTC]

Quote from OldTrader:
... It appears that despite all the whining and gnashing of teeth, Zzzap did in fact double click, which then set off a chain of events leading to the loss he was whining about. I think it's important to acknowledge this fact. Operator error so to speak. Now, you seem to be willing to look past this, and therefore there is no reason I shouldn't too. ...

Unfortunately, in TWS, sometimes transmit button stayed "pressed" or "half-pressed" for a short while, and the user may not reasonably know if the 'original click' was good enough for TWS. IB is aware of it.

 

[dont]

Quote from traderNik:


Is it their responsibility to make this customer whole? I'd like to see some debate on that topic, since IB's contention is that they can pinpoint where in time the customer became aware of the situation.

For me the issue is this, what if the "mistake" had made money, would the OP feel obliged to give the money to IB, I think not.
I don't think IB are legally obliged to make him whole.

The fact that they are willing to compensate him some amount, is really amazing.

On the double click issue using the book trader I have often tried to move an order just as it executes only to have another order in the market, as it executes. And of course it happens in a fast market and I lose money. Thats trading!

Overall I am amazed at the treatment IB has given this issue.
The next time someone on ET wants to IB bash, perhaps Baron should automatically send them to this thread.

 

[OldTrader]

Quote from Tums:

The TWS susceptible to double click is the problem that set off this unfortunate event.

I have noticed the TWS was very sensitive. I often click on a tab, and sent the page detached.

IB should own up to the origin of the problem, and not to further aggravate the customer by nickel and dime a "small" sum (in IB's eyes) to death. This customer has already suffered the lost of a whole month's trading.

You know, almost everything on my computer is "susceptible" to a double click. I thought we all knew that mouseclicks mean something on a computer. Being "susceptible" to double click didn't cause this...the act of doubleclicking caused it.

That said, IB already looked past this. But that doesn't mean it's the "origin of the problem" either.

But why on earth would IB be responsible for the entire loss when the customer decides to play the market with the position?

OldTrader

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from One:

is it reasonable to assume that if the software had handled the double order correctly he would have noticed and cancelled the second order before the problem... occurred?

One

Yes, that's a good question. Is it reasonable to assume it? Sure, in the way you have stated it, it is almost a certainty. He would have noticed it if an alert went off the second a double order went in.

Does this fact mean that IB is somehow partially responsible for the loss? Well...

Someone mentioned that even though we sign a contract, it doesn't mean that a court wouldn't find IB either partially or fully liable if it can be shown that a loss was the result of a massive failure on the part of IB. I guess this is sort of what you're asking - who is ultimately responsible.

If he double-clicked, then all that can be said is TWS sucked for a moment and there's going to be nothing the OP can do about it. There is no way that the OP will have a legal leg to stand on if this is the case. If he subsequently tried to get cute with a mistaken position, he shouldn't hold his breath for full compensation.

 

[OldTrader]

Quote from GTC:

Unfortunately, in TWS, sometimes transmit button stayed "pressed" or "half-pressed" for a short while, and the user may not reasonably know if the 'original click' was good enough for TWS. IB is aware of it.

I don't normally use the transmit button in TWS. However, at one time I used BookTrader....which had that problem occasionally. When it happened to me, I would look to see if an order was transmitted, pending, etc. Last thing I would do is double click. By the way, I made them aware of the problem in BookTrader...as far as I know they did nothing to correct it at the time. Eventually I switched my frontend to ButtonTrader.

But you wouldn't want to design something to not act on a rapid click following an original click. The trader might just want to enter a second order. I do this at times. If the system suddenly blocked this type of trade in order to compensate for someone who is double clicking in error...now we really have a problem.

But clearly, if its sticking in some manner, that needs to be addressed.

OldTrader

 

[GTC]

Some time ago, once asked about what's IB's platform's intended behavior for "clicking", "double-clicking" in an event of seeming "half-pressed" transmit button, IB's CSR never mentioned that the tool would think of it as multiple trade requests. Since IB caters primarily active traders, IB should address the issues even more carefully and clarify/document the intended behavior and known limitations. A robust software from the QA department (if it exists) would be nice. I am quite sure a lot of people would not miss the thrill of seeing multiple versions in a short period.

 

[Manni]

Quote from IBj:

OK, here it finally is:

19:55:57 Client submits multiple orders in various currencies. This is the first time we can know with certainty that the client is using and attending the TWS. Had he covered the GBP position at this time, the loss would have been roughly 12000 USD.

20:07:31 through 20:10 Client submits multiple orders for GBP futures on the buy (covering side) although the bids seem to be far away from the market. Had the position been covered here instead of just being bid, the loss would have been ~8700 USD.


[/list=1]

Its worrying that this happened in the first place but..
Looks like the trader had a good 20 mins to act and manage/cancel the order before it went badly against him. Its debatable whether he should be fully compensated.