5 days before the election- Jobs report

I am having a great time tonight with you guys and am getting much to consider...sometimes I wish I could take moderator away from below my handle....as I am truly a guest to the greatness this evening and I notice folks do not candidly talk to me anymore...

Wifey is walking the dog and I am going to pour a glass of expensive wine and chew on this thread and re-read every word. Thank you for a fullfilling evening and.... tack sa mycket...adjo. ( I spelled that wrong and got to ask wifey...she is Swedish..ok I fixed it..but cant get the little dot above the A in sa or the two dots above the O in adjo)

Michael B.
 
Quote from Maverick74:

OK, let me deal with this argument directly.

I often hear this brought up and this argument is full of major flaws. The largest being that we are not making an apples to apples comparison.

In our society, and most others, those who take risks, add gamma to their earning potential. In other words, their income potential is squared over time and becomes exponential. Those who don't takes risks, have a more linear income stream with a fairly flat slope.

CEO's are usually not giving their position at birth. Most of them start out at the bottom of company. Jack Welch started out in sales and engineering at GE and worked at the bottom for nearly 20 years before he actually made any kind of money. It was only after 40 years at GE do we see him as the wealthy and successful (ex-CEO) that he is today. He is one of the "winners". How many at GE tried to do that and failed? We will never know (survivorship bias).

So you can't compare CEO's to common laborers because both parties are not taking the same risk. The common laborer gets a check every 2 weeks. He works 9 to 5. He has a job with minimal responsibility and virtually no risk. As long as he has a job, his dinner plate is full.

The CEO does not enjoy the same safety. Every day he has to take risks, take chances. If he has one mistep and his stock drops, or his misses earnings one quarter, he could be removed. He could lose his job, re-sign in humiliation and perhaps not ever be wealthy again. Surely he will go out on his own, start his own company with whatever capital he managed to save over his life, only to get bitten by some random outcome that leads to failure and bankruptcy. Meanwhile the commoner is still making the widgets in the factory and putting food on his dinner plate. He is none the wiser.
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You make some good points that I can agree with, but some don't fly. Having taken a shot a business myself,(twice), I agree those that put up the money, take the time(usually 80-100hr weeks) deserve the lions share of the profits, should there be any profits. Where I disagree is the CEO does not take the same risk as the entrepenuer, in most cases. Should the CEO fail in his/her job they are usually still making millions upon millions of dollars. My business fails, as it did, and I was just S.O.L.
Another point I'd take issue with is your opinion of minimal responsibility of the common worker and no risk. Over the years responsibility on the job has grown tremendously while the pay and benefits have remained virtually flat. The risk is you hope the guy calling the shots knows what the hell he's doing or you may find yourself unemployed even though you have done your job adequately.
Now I'm not talking about some kid selling shoes, I'm talking about skilled craftsman, technicans and skilled machine operators. These are jobs that are the blood and guts of the blue collar work force. Without them the economy will suffer and so will the society in general. The transistion to globalization is a long and painful road for people in that sector and most are ill prepared for employment changes that will require a 50% pay cut. The failed CEO that has made millions can ride off into the sunset fat and happy.
 
I know a CEO's that lost everything...He had a house in Beverly and Newport with two Rolls Royces...now he lives in a Condo in Tarzana...at one time he could finnace a small countries budget...


The failed CEO that has made millions can ride off into the sunset fat and happy.
 
Quote from dddooo:

I find liberals waste WAY too much energy worrying about what others are earning.
Actually liberals worry that the income of the working people is not growing and in many cases decreasing. The skyrocketing CEO compensation is simply an easy and convenient way to point out that this wage stagnation is not warranted.

If one can make a valid contribution to an organization then compensation and reward will follow.
LOL, I know that's what they teach in the 5th grade but at your age you don't really believe that any more, do you?
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"Valid contribution" means more than just phoning it in on the assembly line. Someone in Malaysia or India can just as easily do the shit jobs at a fraction the cost.
 
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

"Valid contribution" means more than just phoning it in on the assembly line. Someone in Malaysia or India can just as easily do the shit jobs at a fraction the cost.
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Someone in Malaysia or India can do virtually any kind of job at a fraction of the cost, it's only a matter of time before they do. The only jobs that won't be outsourced will be sales jobs. Too bad there will be no buyers left in this country.
 
You're right. If we don't adapt, create new technologies and produce efficiently we'll suffer. Competition is what it's all about.

Even within this great service economy there's medium skill/medium pay jobs that offer folks a ticket out of poverty.

Instead of our educational system boring illiterate and unmotivated Tyrone and Tashiba with the rigors of Beowulf, how about training them to be mechanics or roofers or cable installers. We need to get off this bullshit about higher education being a panacea. A friend of mine owns a successful restaurant group in Chicago. EVERY kitchen employee he has is Mexican. (all legal, many U.S. born) Why? Because American kids aren't skilled enough to make a Caesar dressing from scratch. They won't spend six nights a week broiling steaks in a hot kitchen. Even at 30-40k a year it's impossible to find young adults in Chicago who will show up each night and go all out at a menial job. Compare this lack of effort to American's a couple of generations ago.

The few home grown industries we have our the enemies of Liberals. Remember when JFK tanked the market in 1962 with his intervention in the steel price hike? Well whatever happened to our steel industry? Gone with the wind. Now who're the new bogeymen? Big oil and big pharma. Two industries that bring billions into this country and Libs would LOVE to make them unprofitable.

Quote from dddooo:

Someone in Malaysia or India can do virtually any kind of job at a fraction of the cost, it's only a matter of time before they do. The only jobs that won't be outsourced will be sales jobs. Too bad there will be no buyers left in this country.
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I work for a $5B Regulated Utility. I am the Mgr for an unregulated sub. I direct union crews as well as deal with the top hierarchy. It is interesting, but the 80% of the union crews I work with are far happier than middle or top mgmt ... even though they get less cash. They have taken less of a whack than the office workers in some ways...and they know that won't last...but I think they are better prepared and have salable skills...and there is a lot of satisfaction in that. Money is important, but it isn't everything.

Here is our big outsourcing for the year:

Accounting-Small Amount went to Tulsa...rest to Banglore
IT Support - Costa Rica and Toronto
HR - Mostly to Costa Rica
Software Dev - Banglore/Manila
Telecom Ops - IBM ... 1/2 in house balance unknown

(Remaining Telecom Engineering/Design people were recently told they must pull one day on call as 2nd level support ... Vacation cut to three weeks tops ... and you have to bill the full year like you were there during your vacation ... other words ... squeeze in extra work during the year so vacation doesn't end up in the overheads.)

Yep, that sucks. About 10% took a risk and found better jobs. 90% stayed and spend their time bitching about their pain. I have recently helped a few more to get up and out, but most don't want to hear about change...or investing for the future, etc. They freakin do not know how to learn and refuse to even try. My friends in the union crew are twice as risk taking and hungry for training than the white collars.

I started at a grunt $14k/yr in 1974 ... I saved $3k that year. Worked extra jobs outside and paid my house off early. I had an unfair advantage over 95% of Americans today. My momma read the Grasshopper/Ant story to me once a month and Dad, with his union job, beat on me to get an education that would create value.... My Dad worked like a horse and my momma...she was one smart Lady.

Bottom line for our Country?

It is the education system that has done the maximal damage ... far worse than an unsound Greenback and tort lawyers. Our system has become 70% low value instruction and 30% indoctrination. I love to learn new things. My kids tell me they 'hate' books and 'teachers'. Jeez...

My first year in Engineering School, after 12 continuous years of English...a English Prof comes in and writes "verb" on the board. I thought I would throw up. How about 9 years of English and 3 years learning about savings, checking, insurance...and the real world coming at you like a freight train?

My daughter just sent me a problem she couldn't do from her freshman year College Algebra class. She got A's in high school...but she had never been taught how to make a simple percentage. I exploded.

My youngest daughter has a 9th grade Social Studies teach with a bumper sticker above the board behind her desk....
"It's we the people, not we the corporations!"
As a cube dweller for 30+ years, having seen both union and management screwups, there is good and bad on both sides.
This lady has never been inside a business that delivers product, keeps the heat and light on ... but yet she is doing her damnedest to destroy any chance her students have to be productive...completely clueless.

My Girl was also having trouble in her algebra class...I met with her teach and she looked me in the eye and said... "I don't care!" God....

My son was studying Mech Engineering in College...the Pakistani Statics prof interupted a mid-term test that his class was taking...pointing his finger at random students..."Half of you do not have what it takes to be an Engineer and you will be gone soon!" Yep, Engineering is not a place for math slackers...but what in the hell are we paying the "professors" for? How about some teaching for God's sake? I complained and was told he is "tenured". Hell...

If we do not take our education system back and get our kids thinking again instead of seeking refuge in massively multiplayer video games and internet porn, they will only be qualified to spread manure and mulch in 2030.

Education is the key... volunteer in your local school ... help every kid you can... see what is going down .... and know you can really make a big difference with your experience and knowledge to encourage our kids to get in the game and kick butt.

T
 
Quote from dddooo:

Someone in Malaysia or India can do virtually any kind of job at a fraction of the cost, it's only a matter of time before they do. The only jobs that won't be outsourced will be sales jobs. Too bad there will be no buyers left in this country.
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How about trading jobs? That could explain why you have failed as a trader. The Malays and Indians are much better traders than you are and at a fraction of the cost.
 
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:
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Even within this great service economy there's medium skill/medium pay jobs that offer folks a ticket out of poverty...how about training them to be mechanics or roofers or cable installers. We need to get off this bullshit about higher education being a panacea.
Fair enough, we'll soon become a nation of cooks, roofers and insurance salesmen... as opposed to being a nation of engineers, scientists and researchers. We'll lose every high-tech industry because it's cheaper overseas, we'll all compete for a small number of blue-collar construction jobs that can't be outsourced. Unlike Mav and yourself I don't see it as a good thing though and it's not obvious to me how a nation of roofers can maintain its superpower status.

Now who're the new bogeymen? Big oil and big pharma. Two industries that bring billions into this country and Libs would LOVE to make them unprofitable.
Actually they are bringing billions into their own coffers, enriching few and ripping off everyone else. Their profitability comes at the expense of the amercian public. That's the point, businesses and a small number of individuals (5%) are getting insanely rich while the rest of the country is suffering. At least these two industries employ americans and do pay decent wages, I am more than willing to acknowledge that but frankly I see no reason why they won't outsource these jobs in the near future. It's just as easy to create drugs in Moscow, Russia and manufacture them in Bangladesh as it is in New Jersey.
 
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