46% Americans Believe In Creationism According To Latest Gallup Poll

Mercor · Jun 9, 2012

Quote from Toonces:

Does anyone, who doesn't believe in evolution

Evolution by definition never stops, yet science claims many species have not changed in millions of years.
How can evolution stop unless in has reached its design.

jem · Jun 9, 2012

Quote from Toonces:

Does anyone, who doesn't believe in evolution, have a response to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk

Most scientifically educated Christians, including Ken Miller, Francis Collins, Michael Behe (one of the main proponents of intelligent design) freely admit the common descent of man with all other living creatures. Some of them, like Behe, just believe that God intervened at some point(s).

No problems here.

jem · Jun 9, 2012

I thought there was little debate. I thought everyone acknowledged there are gaps in the genealogies accept a few born agains.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/do-the-genesis-genealogies-contain-gaps

Quote from Toonces:

If you believe Genesis is literally true, it's hard to overcome a 6000-year old universe. There are no gaps in the Genesis geneology. If you want to say there are gaps, you have to admit that Genesis is errant.

Read Genesis 5 and 10. The formula is: A lived X years, and then become the father of B. B lived Y years, and became the father of C...So Adam lived to 130, became the father of Seth. So year 130, Seth is born. Seth lives 105 years, and becomes the father of Enosh. So in year 245, Enosh is born. The math is simple, from Adam to Abraham is about 2000 years. Abraham would have been born about 2000BC. This is calculated from various passages in Genesis and Exodus. That makes Adam's brith about 6000 years ago.

It doesn't seem likely one can get around a 6000-year old antiquity of mankind from Genesis. You could be creative, and say that what is meant is 'Adam lived 130 years, and became the father of some undefined person, who was the great-great-great...grandfather of Seth.' That seems unlikely, but it's probably the only explanation you could come up with. If you do the math, Methusaleh dies the exact year of the flood. Quite a coincidence, if we're talking about 'great-great-great...grandfathers'. Plus, the phrase 'he had other sons and daughters'--this is very odd, if what is being said is 'A became the father of someone who was the great-great-great...grandfather of B, and A had other sons and daughters.'

The antiquity of the universe is a little trickier, but I think you have almost as much difficulty. Yes 'day' is 'yom' in Hebrew, which has more than one meaning...but when the law is given, the Hebrews are instructed to honor the Sabbath day, because God rested on the 7th day. So it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for them to rest on the 7th day, because God rested on the 7th indefinable period of time. Also, the Genesis formula is 'there was evening and morning, a first day...evening and morning, a second day'...sounds like a 'day' as we understand it today.

And the argument comes back--but how could it be a 24-hour day, when there was no sun on the first few days? The simplest answer, that handles every single difficulty in Genesis--the writer was describing a creation myth. Just like a creation myth that any other culture devised.

I don't know how anyone would reconcile Genesis with modern science, unless you say that it's all mythology. But if you believe the bible is inspired, you run into other problems--like Paul saying that death and judgment passed from Adam to all men. Hard for that to happen, if he's not a historical person.

eurojack · Jun 10, 2012

To quote Eddie Griffin (stand-up comedian):

In the beginning there was Adam and Eve. And Adam and Even had two sons, Cain and Abel. And Cain and Abel got married. To who!? Where did these mystery bitches come from!?

Haha. Here's the entire piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsuAtiVm28Q

jcl · Jun 10, 2012

Quote from Mercor:

Evolution by definition never stops, yet science claims many species have not changed in millions of years.
How can evolution stop unless in has reached its design.

Those species have reached an equilibrium with their environment. Put them in a different environment and they will change.

A simple proof that evolution works is its use in engineering, even in trading. Genetic algorithms generate automated trading strategies. Those algorithms simulate evolution by random mutations and selection, and change a strategy until it's optimized to a certain market.

CaptainObvious · Jun 10, 2012

Nothing but threads on atheism and global warming this weekend. That's about all the left has at this point. Obama has screwed the pooch. He may not even win Massachusetts at this rate. Keep clinging to these fringe issues and see where that get's you.

Mercor · Jun 10, 2012

Quote from jcl:

Those species have reached an equilibrium with their environment. Put them in a different environment and they will change.

A simple proof that evolution works is its use in engineering, even in trading. Genetic algorithms generate automated trading strategies. Those algorithms simulate evolution by random mutations and selection, and change a strategy until it's optimized to a certain market.

Equilibrium does not exist in the theory of evolution.
All organisms are improving through sexual selection to try to get the edge on the other species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen's_Hypothesis
For example, because every improvement in one species will lead to a selective advantage for that species, variation will normally continuously lead to increases in fitness in one species or another. However, since in general different species are co-evolving, improvement in one species implies that it will get a competitive advantage over the other species, and thus be able to capture a larger share of the resources available to all. This means that fitness increase in one evolutionary system will tend to lead to fitness decrease in another system. The only way that a species involved in a competition for resources can maintain its fitness relative to other competing species is by improving its specific fitness.

Ricter · Jun 10, 2012

Quote from CaptainObvious:

Nothing but threads on atheism and global warming this weekend. That's about all the left has at this point. Obama has screwed the pooch. He may not even win Massachusetts at this rate. Keep clinging to these fringe issues and see where that get's you.

Grandluxe has put up another really important anti-Obama thread, check it out.
; )

jcl · Jun 10, 2012

Quote from Mercor:

Equilibrium does not exist in the theory of evolution.

Well, I suggest that you google for the phrase "punctuated equilibrium".

Quote from Mercor:

Because every improvement in one species will lead to a selective advantage for that species, variation will normally continuously lead to increases in fitness in one species or another. However, since in general different species are co-evolving, improvement in one species implies that it will get a competitive advantage over the other species, and thus be able to capture a larger share of the resources available to all. This means that fitness increase in one evolutionary system will tend to lead to fitness decrease in another system. The only way that a species involved in a competition for resources can maintain its fitness relative to other competing species is by improving its specific fitness.

This is not how evolution works. Evolution is indeed driven by competitive advantage, but among individuals, not among species. You would have evolution even if only one single species existed. Evolution causes optimal adaption to the environment, up to a point where the overall fitness has reached a local maximum. Then you have equilibrium. It's a rather simple, but highly successful concept, and works in many different areas, even in engineering.

Ricter · Jun 10, 2012

Quote from jcl:

Well, I suggest that you then google for the words "punctuated equilibrium".

This is not how evolution works. Evolution is indeed driven by competitive advantage, but among individuals, not among species. You would have evolution even if only one single species existed. Evolution causes optimal adaption to the environment, up to a point where the overall fitness has reached a local maximum. Then you have equilibrium. It's a rather simple, but highly successful concept, and works in many different areas, even in engineering.

Of course there is at least some inter-species competition, for example wolves, mountain lion, and men, all compete for beaver.