$335,000 for entry-level hedge fund analyst

[Ghost of Cutten]

Quote from cmb:

ahah you are dreaming with 60 hours a week. Try 80-100 hours a week. Entry level guys are doing all the grunt work. If you can get it I would say you have to take it though, but...only for a year, 2 max. Especially if you can grind out 2 points a day on the ES.

My friend works at a firm as a entry level analyst---started 2.5 years ago. Only 10% more money then when he started, and has been working 80 hour average weeks for 2.5 years. A few weeks in september he worked 100 hours, I couldnt even get a beer with him on a saturday afternoon because he was working.

The money is better, but your quality of life is much worse on the other side of the coin.


Also, I doubt that you enter into firm making 335k, it is much less...around 200k in NYC if you are lucky., other cities probably around 150k,

3/4 of a century ago, industrial psychologists found that working more than 40 hours per week is actually counter-productive. The reduction in per hour productivity actually more than offsets the increase in the number of hours, after about 2-4 weeks of the higher work load. In mental work (lawyers, doctors, hedge fund analysts etc) the limit is about 6 hours per day, or 30 hours per week, assuming no work on weekends, before total productivity diminishes.

Younger people e.g. 20 somethings may be able to boost those numbers a bit, but not by a huge amount, maybe another 10 hours or so per week. So, anyone doing more than 40-50 hours of solid work over 5 days is actually destroying value for their employer. This is particularly true for risky fields where mistakes can be catastrophic - doctors, military, risk control elements of finance etc. For an employer to be unaware of these studies, which are regularly confirmed in the scientific literature, is extreme managerial incompetence.

 

[cmb]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

3/4 of a century ago, industrial psychologists found that working more than 40 hours per week is actually counter-productive. The reduction in per hour productivity actually more than offsets the increase in the number of hours, after about 2-4 weeks of the higher work load. In mental work (lawyers, doctors, hedge fund analysts etc) the limit is about 6 hours per day, or 30 hours per week, assuming no work on weekends, before total productivity diminishes.

Younger people e.g. 20 somethings may be able to boost those numbers a bit, but not by a huge amount, maybe another 10 hours or so per week. So, anyone doing more than 40-50 hours of solid work over 5 days is actually destroying value for their employer. This is particularly true for risky fields where mistakes can be catastrophic - doctors, military, risk control elements of finance etc. For an employer to be unaware of these studies, which are regularly confirmed in the scientific literature, is extreme managerial incompetence.

I agree with you there. But do you really think XXX firm is gonna pay some 100k per year to work 35 hours a week? haha Hell NO. I have a really good friend working at a ABC firm, he is working on the private equity branch of the firm...pulling in 125k, but he is working his tail off. he works 30 hours in 2 and half days.

Nasically a entry level analyst is doing paperwork for higher ups (my friends case) hoping that if you work your tail off, tow the line...the MAN will give you a promotion. So in preparing paperwork for your analyst a little higher up on the food chain, they can push someone for 80 hours a week, because even if its crappy work at times, the guy above you catches it. And if one person makes enough mistakes while working 80 hours, he will get the AXE.

 

[blakpacman]

Quote from cmb:

I agree with you there. But do you really think XXX firm is gonna pay some 100k per year to work 35 hours a week? haha Hell NO. I have a really good friend working at a ABC firm, he is working on the private equity branch of the firm...pulling in 125k, but he is working his tail off. he works 30 hours in 2 and half days.

vs. him hypothetically quitting that job to join a daytrading firm, then quickly losing his life savings despite working his tail off trying to master the art of daytrading, or scalping the ES.

 

[cmb]

The whole thread is assuming someone can make 100k a year trading. Obviously if you cant trade your way out of a paper bag, you are better to take the money and work.

 

[sle]

Quote from cmb:
I agree with you there. But do you really think XXX firm is gonna pay some 100k per year to work 35 hours a week? haha Hell NO. I have a really good friend working at a ABC firm, he is working on the private equity branch of the firm...pulling in 125k, but he is working his tail off. he works 30 hours in 2 and half days.

On a good desk (like mine ) juniors are working 9-10 hours a day, 5 days a week. That gets them paid $90-$125k + bonus per annum and they learn a ton while doing it. A smart desk manager would not enforce face-time either, once you done with your shit, you free to go. I have, however, seen insane desks where juniors come at 7am and leave at 8pm - it is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Jgills]

Quote from sle:

On a good desk (like mine ) juniors are working 9-10 hours a day, 5 days a week. That gets them paid $90-$125k + bonus per annum and they learn a ton while doing it. A smart desk manager would not enforce face-time either, once you done with your shit, you free to go. I have, however, seen insane desks where juniors come at 7am and leave at 8pm - it is a recipe for disaster.

sounds similar to me, except i'm the junior. its a great place to be for what i aspire for and i'd recommend other young people to get the illusion of turning your savings of 10k to 10m in a few years out of their head sooner rather than later so you can accrue some bonuses and knowledge while waiting for the real opportunities in which case you have plenty of leverage.

i think that is the right trade.

 

[actionzip54]

Lol, working more than 40 hours a week for someone to make 120k in NYC sounds horrible to me.

You could open a business in someplace way cooler and cheaper to live like New Orleans for not that much, work the same amount of hours, maybe a little more like 60 hours a week, and have a higher standard of living. Not to mention you would control your own destiny.

These threads always crack me up. On one side you have the people with totally out of whack trading expectations. On the other side you have people who would prefer indentured servitude because it provides a moderate salary and sliver of job security.

No wonder most traders fail. People are stupid.

 

[blakpacman]

Quote from actionzip54:
You could open a business in someplace way cooler and cheaper to live like New Orleans for not that much, work the same amount of hours, maybe a little more like 60 hours a week, and have a higher standard of living. Not to mention you would control your own destiny ...No wonder most traders fail.

A recent episode of bar rescue showed a bar owner on Bourbon Street losing money and in debt for $500,000. http://www.spike.com/episodes/5wr800/bar-rescue-turtle-on-its-back-season-3-ep-301
Your expectations for opening and running a successful business is too high.
No wonder most small business owners fail.

 

[Jgills]

Quote from actionzip54:

Lol, working more than 40 hours a week for someone to make 120k in NYC sounds horrible to me.

You could open a business in someplace way cooler and cheaper to live like New Orleans for not that much, work the same amount of hours, maybe a little more like 60 hours a week, and have a higher standard of living. Not to mention you would control your own destiny.

These threads always crack me up. On one side you have the people with totally out of whack trading expectations. On the other side you have people who would prefer indentured servitude because it provides a moderate salary and sliver of job security.

No wonder most traders fail. People are stupid.

it seems like we have a differing point of view, but it also seems like you're extrapolating "120k" way too far.

for people that are coming out of college and already in debt (an extremely large % of graduates these days, including myself) job security is not a bad thing, especially a job with high pay.

call it what you please, "indentured servitude", but that pay increases very quickly in this industry, you don't spend 5 years making that, you spend 1-2. on top of that, if you're prudent with your money you can do the exact same thing you're saying in your later 20's (which is far from old) after accruing a few years of bonuses with much more leverage (capital and connections) than you would have had going directly from school to some city you know nothing about and have no connections with no money trying to start a business. on top of that you learn a lot about how the world works, how investors view capital, how to help yourself to raise money, how to sell yourself to the right people (which matters).

if you were able to move directly from college to some small cheap town with no money but what you've made for yourself in college and turn it into a sustainable high-quality life then i am extremely happy for you. you were able to do what many people hope to do at a very young age.

oh - and i forgot to mention, i like what i'm doing everyday at work.

 

[sle]

Quote from actionzip54:

Lol, working more than 40 hours a week for someone to make 120k in NYC sounds horrible to me.

We are talking about people a few years out of college here. Senior guys on the same desk could be taking home an order of magnitude more.

Quote from actionzip54:
You could open a business in someplace way cooler and cheaper to live like New Orleans for not that much, work the same amount of hours, maybe a little more like 60 hours a week, and have a higher standard of living. Not to mention you would control your own destiny.

Majority of small businesses fail. It's very hard to make it from zero to hero, no matter what the way. Probably the best way is to buy a functioning business when you have the cash (i.e. in your late 30s - early 40s after 10 years on a trading desk) then to risk it all early on with few alternatives should you fail.