25,000 Roundtrips a day?!

garachen said:
...25k round trips would never have been possible for an individual trader. Especially not manually..
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Yeah that's what I said before...

Mates of mine used to trade GBL GBM and GBS around that time, 15 years ago... what they where doing was filling the book full with orders... 50 lots... 100 lots or bigger. And play the bid-ask spread. So if they would be in front, it would work like a charm and if they are wrong footed they would try to hedge with one of the other ... GBL vs GBM etc.

You would get to a lot of round trips that way, but 25k sounds extreme.
 
garachen said:
25k round trips would never have been possible for an individual trader. Especially not manually. Things just don't move enough to support that.
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Paul Rotter (the Flipper) was doing 150k to 250k roundturns per day in Bund, Bobl and Schatz. But this was like 15 years ago. Times have changed. It WAS possible to trade that way. Today you need a different approach to the market.
 
JackRab said:
@CALLumbus is that the Bund Future flipper you're talking about? Mates of mine traded on the German bond futures and the hated that guy! :D
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Yes, Paul Rotter, the Flipper :-) He was probably the largest trader on Eurex before other big traders like Harris Brumfield from the USA started to trade size on Eurex.
 
CALLumbus said:
Paul Rotter (the Flipper) was doing 150k to 250k roundturns per day in Bund, Bobl and Schatz. But this was like 15 years ago. Times have changed. It WAS possible to trade that way. Today you need a different approach to the market.
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That were no roundtrips @CALLumbus ... maybe contracts.. but not roundtrips.
There's only 30k seconds in an 8 hour active trading session... so he would do at least 5 roundtrips per second? Nope...

I didn't know his name.. Paul Rotter was it? I'll have to google a bit ;)
 
JackRab, if you prefer contracts... ok, he did up to 500,000 halftrips a day.

Paul often did 100-150 trades per day, his clip size was usually 1000-5000 and even more on Bobl and Schatz. They called him the Flipper for a reason...
 
Wow... you're all over the place @CALLumbus ;) now its 500k...

Doesn't matter, I was thinking in the way a roundtrip as a trade, not contract.. but we mean the same I see now.

He was called Flipper because he flipped the book. So what he did was on a market of say
bid 500 @ 131.10 / ask 500 @ 131.11
He would bid 131.09 and then hit the bid .10 with 1000 contracts and flip the market to
bid 500 @ 131.09 / ask 500 @ 131.10 and try the ones he filled at .10 to cut losses at .09
 
pinetboltz said:
this is truly amazing, and humbling to read..! how do the prop firms in London provide enough leverage to do this? what are the mechanisms involved (eg. contracts per trade, trade per day, profit/loss per trade, types of trades, commissions paid), in going about trading 25,000 round trips a day? any ideas?
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keep in mind that retail normally think in terms of volume going through on outrights. The liquidity available in many spread markets dwarfs that of anything you will see in outright. Take crude oil for example, people on retail forums talk about it being 'thin'. If a trader is in one of the front 1 month flys it is possible to get 500 lots off comfortably in something that barely moves a couple of ticks a day. 500 lots in a fly equates to 2000 lots of volume traded. The same when trading fixed income spreads, many of these are 1000s up on the DOM. This is what Garachen is referring to when you need to 'get your volume up', you play where its possible to build your volume at lower risk if that's your goal. The benefits of doing this can be huge as it opens up strategies where you are taking 1 tick winners in a spread. This is because doing more volume gives you access to lower transaction costs.

As Garachen pointed out, prop trading is more about allocating risk than capital. If you slap £100k in account with a large prop clearer you can get huge limits depending on what you are trading.
 
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