$15 an hour minimum wage killed Seatle’s job market

[newwurldmn]

Wages don't get rolled back in a recession. Wages are a business cost like lights and rent. I dont remember any landlord slicing off 20% of the rent just because the economy was bad. I either paid or was evicted. (commercial leases)

But artificially high wages exacerbate the issue. Usualname is making the argument min wage should be higher because low unemployment means there won’t be a lot of layoffs. However when the economy softens and unemployment goes up - those min wage laws (which artificially raise the cost of labor) aren’t rolled down.

Rents often do go down. However, typically landlords would rather space go unused than lock in an unfavorable rate now.

 

[Bugenhagen]

I object, to no avail of course, to those whom Chomsky has termed "anarcho-capitalists," calling themselves "libertarians". this misuse of the word. common in the U.S., speaks to the woeful lack of education -- antipathy toward it actually-- and lack of intellect found in many on the far right of the political spectrum. It's a pity, as it bodes ill for the Nation's future.

What I see from the outside perspective of them signing up for expat Facebook groups in three countries is the alleged "libertarians" have two priority questions.

1. Where can I get pot?
2. I feel scared, can I get a gun?

It seems paranoia by two much 1 leads to 2. They also keep trying to make out they are "logical" and clever... like a narcissistic twitch.

The only difficult problem adults with actual normal broad intellect, (i.e. not highly faulty in some aspects) have to make is something like "What am I going to have for dinner tonight?", every goddam day for the rest of our lives.

These dopey guys can't manage to live like a normal person without medicating with drugs and getting the balance wrong with people.

 

[UsualName]

If the free market pushes wages up, that’s one thing. But to force government regulation on this issue is another.

Here is a non-hypothetical example: a guy has a plant in Massachusetts. Labor rates are going up because of regulation and he has to compete not only with China but with Virginia. He might have to absorb 15 dollars/hour now but he will look for alternative which while likely to not be China (as he has built a niche to combat that) but will likely be a more favorable state. Employees who were fine taking 13/hour from him will have to find another job in 3 months.

And when there is a recession, those minimum wage laws don’t get rolled back. What happens then?

So that does happen and will continue to happen. We don’t have to lower America to Chinese labor standards to still have good wages.

I live in a state without an ocean of oil beneath the ground or tons of gas between the rocks. We rely on education and innovation, transportation and commerce.

The point is nothing will stay still in life or business. We must move forward with the tools we have.

In my mind, your attitude is basically managed decline. We must try to keep what we have and not change no matter the losses. How is that working for coal country.

If your fictional plant is paying $13 an hour is that the best that can be done with the availability of labor and resources in that area of America? Probably not.

People forget that one of the greatest modernizations of America was a government program, the TVA. It totally transformed large swaths of land and communities in the south and Midwest into viable economic regions that pushed up the quality of life and increased economic capacity. The return on that investment is still paying dividends.

The point is to not be afraid of the future and growth. Try thinking beyond racing to the bottom and managed decline. This is how the rust belt got hollowed out.

 

[NeoTrader]

I object, to no avail of course, to those whom Chomsky has termed "anarcho-capitalists," calling themselves "libertarians". this misuse of the word. common in the U.S., speaks to the woeful lack of education -- antipathy toward it actually-- and lack of intellect found in many on the far right of the political spectrum. It's a pity, as it bodes ill for the Nation's future.

Yeah, says the self-proclaimed libertarian who defends almost every leftist/socialist policy there is and quotes the guy that went down to Venezuela congratulate Hugo Chavez and made statements like these about his government: "I can see how a better world is being created and can speak to the person who's inspired it." (What a visionary!!!!! It's almost as if Chomsky has is head so far up his ass, that despite all his "knowledge" he could not see the train wreck he was applauding and now that the train has derailed, he's just left drowning in his own bullshit... Oh! I can see how you relate to him!)

Clearly I'm the real danger to "the Nation" and not you...

 

[Bugenhagen]

Yeah, says the self-proclaimed libertarian who defends almost every leftist/socialist policy there is and quotes the guy that went down to Venezuela congratulate Hugo Chavez and made statements like these about his government: "I can see how a better world is being created and can speak to the person who's inspired it."
View attachment 218196 View attachment 218197
Clearly I'm the real danger to "the Nation" and not you...

A normal brain would just say, ok Chomsky went and tried as a decent human being does to provide a normalizing steer toward a higher minded path and hey, no surprise it had little effect. But he tried.

To NeoNut however, "I see a photo with mr I'm so smarty and Chavez!!!!!! Ohhhh!!! I'm gonna post this!!!! "

 

[El OchoCinco]

But artificially high wages exacerbate the issue. Usualname is making the argument min wage should be higher because low unemployment means there won’t be a lot of layoffs. However when the economy softens and unemployment goes up - those min wage laws (which artificially raise the cost of labor) aren’t rolled down.

Rents often do go down. However, typically landlords would rather space go unused than lock in an unfavorable rate now.

They dont go down while I am in it...just like an employer does not roll salaries up or down on employees based on economic swings. You cannot roll down min wage 4 years from now just because the economy is doing worse. People get laid off, companies tighten up the belts, stuff that happens no matter the level of the min wage. Even if min wage was $7, if a business loses a lot of revenues, they are letting people go.

 

[newwurldmn]

They dont go down while I am in it...just like an employer does not roll salaries up or down on employees based on economic swings. You cannot roll down min wage 4 years from now just because the economy is doing worse. People get laid off, companies tighten up the belts, stuff that happens no matter the level of the min wage. Even if min wage was $7, if a business loses a lot of revenues, they are letting people go.

That’s my point. If they raise the min wage now citing low unemployment, demand for employees will go down and they can’t roll back the min wage. So they shouldn’t raise it to begin with.

In the end it’s the (variable cost of employees against the fixed cost of automation) vs the required demand.

 

[newwurldmn]

So that does happen and will continue to happen. We don’t have to lower America to Chinese labor standards to still have good wages.

I live in a state without an ocean of oil beneath the ground or tons of gas between the rocks. We rely on education and innovation, transportation and commerce.

The point is nothing will stay still in life or business. We must move forward with the tools we have.

In my mind, your attitude is basically managed decline. We must try to keep what we have and not change no matter the losses. How is that working for coal country.

If your fictional plant is paying $13 an hour is that the best that can be done with the availability of labor and resources in that area of America? Probably not.

People forget that one of the greatest modernizations of America was a government program, the TVA. It totally transformed large swaths of land and communities in the south and Midwest into viable economic regions that pushed up the quality of life and increased economic capacity. The return on that investment is still paying dividends.

The point is to not be afraid of the future and growth. Try thinking beyond racing to the bottom and managed decline. This is how the rust belt got hollowed out.

Generate the growth opportunity and watch wages rise then.

Mandating a wage increase will only displace workers in the near future in favor of automation and lower wage locations. Let the market figure it out.

The plant wasn’t fictional. 35 people will likely go on welfare in three months and a Trump Loving red state will pick up those jobs.

 

[CaptainObvious]

This is a truth.

Which would you rather have, corruption or unsafe planes and meat?

I'd rather have all people held accountable regardless of political connections, wealth and social status. Instead we have runaway corruption and endless regulation, neither of which are ever truly addressed in any meaningful way, which is no surprise since it's the investigated doing the investigating, prosecution and the defense, so we end up with bullshit conclusions like, there was no intent to do anything illegal.

 

[El OchoCinco]

That’s my point. If they raise the min wage now citing low unemployment, demand for employees will go down and they can’t roll back the min wage. So they shouldn’t raise it to begin with.

In the end it’s the (variable cost of employees against the fixed cost of automation) vs the required demand.

I just don't buy the argument that raises should not be raised simply because sometime in the future bad times could come and then you cannot roll them back. If that were true we would never get raises...