14,000 mostly-elite white Britons reverted to Islam?

[stu]

Certainly Christianity is responsible for the holocaust as much as Germany , its' culture at at that time is, as is still , the annulment of conscience by dominating Christianity and the Christian ethos of handing off ultimate responsibility for all wickedness to an immovable dictator.

Christianity in its design , along with most other religions including Islam, likes to absolve itself , by forsaking ultimate accountability, not to basic human-centered values, but to a sky born despot who will decide what is right and wrong sometime never. As if that were a good thing.

Certainly as much as Germany, it's culture at the time, is the annulment of conscience by a dominating Christianity and Christian beliefs. Responsibility is right there.
Never were those evil actions condemned by the very same Christianity whose form is represented by the Roman Catholic Church with which Hitler openly associated through the whole of his life . He was a Christian and it's said a Pagan too, so he was a theist.

His Christian beliefs were constantly proclaimed by himself and his actions rested upon him understanding and expressing clearly how he was doing the work of Christianity's own proclaimed certain and immovable potentate.

Religion poisons and Christianity is responsible for that.

 

[Ricter]

You speak as if the holocaust would not have happened if Hitler had been an atheist.

 

[stu]

You think it somehow better to be able to justify those actions by divine authority as a theist, than to have no such warrant as an atheist?

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a .45.

 

[misterno]

Quote from stu:


A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a .45.

says who?

 

[Ricter]

Quote from stu:

You think it somehow better to be able to justify those actions by divine authority as a theist, than to have no such warrant as an atheist?

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a .45.

I'll phrase it as a question, maybe my meaning will be clearer:

Do you think the holocaust would not have happened if Hitler had been atheist?

 

[stu]

Quote from Ricter:

I'll phrase it as a question, maybe my meaning will be clearer:

Do you think the holocaust would not have happened if Hitler had been atheist?

You mean, do I think the holocaust would not have happened if Christian Germany and Hitler's Christian faith in general hadn't been forged as Christian faith is, on Luther's Christian protestant reformation riddled with that German priest's violent rabid anti-Semitism and the centuries of Catholic anti-Semitic rhetoric about "Christ Killers"?

Aren't you asking would someone still act like a junkie if they hadn't taken the drugs?

 

[Ricter]

Quote from stu:

You mean, do I think the holocaust would not have happened if Christian Germany and Hitler's Christian faith in general hadn't been forged as Christian faith is, on Luther's Christian protestant reformation riddled with that German priest's violent rabid anti-Semitism and the centuries of Catholic anti-Semitic rhetoric about "Christ Killers"?

Aren't you asking would someone still act like a junkie if they hadn't taken the drugs?

Well, I know you want to believe it's all about and only about religion (and you would be right if you considered the problem from an existential viewpoint and acknowledeged that all human symbol systems are "religious"), but it's well known that other factors were at work to rouse a population, not just one religious man, if Hitler was indeed so religious as you claim. German nationalism, German pride, German paranoia, and German shame (following WWI and it's restrictions) are commonly understood to have played a role it creating "Hitler's willing executioners", not to mention what we know of mob psychology. You cannot validly lay all of it on religion.

 

[PocketChange]

Not sure why all the bitching about a mere 14000 islamic converts. This is the 2nd most populous religion in the world... followed by 25% of mankind.

Live and let live.

 

[stu]

Quote from Ricter:

Well, I know you want to believe it's all about and only about religion (and you would be right if you considered the problem from an existential viewpoint and acknowledeged that all human symbol systems are "religious"), but it's well known that other factors were at work to rouse a population, not just one religious man, if Hitler was indeed so religious as you claim. German nationalism, German pride, German paranoia, and German shame (following WWI and it's restrictions) are commonly understood to have played a role it creating "Hitler's willing executioners", not to mention what we know of mob psychology. You cannot validly lay all of it on religion.

I don't know why you want to make assumptions about what you think I believe, and I certainly don't think it sensible for you to suggest that religion as it is instilled into the mind of nations and one madman called Hitler, can only be really thought of existentially!!

This thread is littered with the usual religious attempts trying to exonerate religion of all blame, cause, or influence when history and the facts show quite the opposite. Is that your attempt to do the same?

And here you are apparently hand waving away religion's dramatic impression on everything it touches; only able to be considered from an existential viewpoint, because all human systems are "religious". What!?
It’s nonsense to turn away from the reality of pernicious ideology embedded by religion in general and Christianity in this case particularly, by turning it into a philosophical exercise.
Just what do you mean by putting "religious" into inverted commas for goodness sake!

Of course there were other factors. So were they all existential ones too?.
Less or equally to blame along with the teachings of the Christian religious message as it penetrated the consciousness of every German who followed it including Hitler, to at least assuage any awareness of atrocity in glory of its own divine and heavenly dictator who, can judge them as they judge themselves through His holy word, to be righteous by their actions?

That is the banefully glorious measure and justification religion makes available to the theist.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

I hear your argument, and I will agree that religion has an impact on every culture.

Tell me that your hatred of religion (often irrational hatred) is not the product of religion.

So Christianity is to blame for your current religion of non God?

Were you one of the atheists who simply chose not to believe in God, had no grudge against those who did believe in God...chose to place the blame on individuals for their choices of leaders and their own actions...rather than blaming a religion...you would be one of those atheists who is not still working through their own childhood wounding.

Sorry God didn't work out for you...but get over it.

Stalin was as bad as Hitler...no religion at work there. Mao? Nope.

The problem is not religion, religion is a belief system...not an action system.

The action system is a product of choice, choice of what to believe, whom to follow, etc.

I don't blame Islam for those followers who interpret Mohamed in their fanatical destructive manner...I blame those people.

Islam, Christianity, etc. are never to blame...the leaders and their ideas that are absorbed and promoted to the weak minded, who then act upon them are to blame.

On every street corner you can find some nut preaching something. Most don't have followers.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. implemented tried and true human psychological techniques to motivate and control the minds of the their followers. None of that is part of religion.

Religions can be a tool used by the corrupt, as we see in America by the corrupt TV Evangelists, by the politicians who use Jesus Christ to pander to get votes, etc.

Has nothing to do with the religion, it has to do with the perversion of the religions by human beings for their own selfish purposes.

The rise of the Nazis had to do with factors so removed from Christianity, i.e. their beat down in WWI, there bad economic situation, and the need of a proud people to blame someone else outside of their "group" for their problems. This was not the product of Christianity, but the product of human nature, expertly manipulated by Hitler and his brain trust.

Here at ET you perpetually want to put religion on trial because you feel like a victim and I again say...get over it.

You practice atheism, which means you are the follower of an ism...you hold this belief system, are angry with theism...it is classic...you just won't see it until you let go of the pain and disappointment that came from your childhood.

Religions are not to blame for the actions of selfish people who act in political ways that harm others.

Blaming the religion take the responsibility off of the individual, and does not address the real point of religion...which is to promote acceptance of God, and in turn acceptance of your fellow man.

Quote from stu:

I don't know why you want to make assumptions about what you think I believe, and I certainly don't think it sensible for you to suggest that religion as it is instilled into the mind of nations and one madman called Hitler, can only be really thought of existentially!!

This thread is littered with the usual religious attempts trying to exonerate religion of all blame, cause, or influence when history and the facts show quite the opposite. Is that your attempt to do the same?

And here you are apparently hand waving away religion's dramatic impression on everything it touches; only able to be considered from an existential viewpoint, because all human systems are "religious". What!?
It’s nonsense to turn away from the reality of pernicious ideology embedded by religion in general and Christianity in this case particularly, by turning it into a philosophical exercise.
Just what do you mean by putting "religious" into inverted commas for goodness sake!

Of course there were other factors. So were they all existential ones too?.
Less or equally to blame along with the teachings of the Christian religious message as it penetrated the consciousness of every German who followed it including Hitler, to at least assuage any awareness of atrocity in glory of its own divine and heavenly dictator who, can judge them as they judge themselves through His holy word, to be righteous by their actions?

That is the banefully glorious measure and justification religion makes available to the theist.