10% unemployment but H1B visas accelerating

[swtrader]

Quote from leela:

In this economy, many experience IT workers are out of work and willing to do more entry levels stuff even at H1-B pay. However, these Americans are not even considered.

even in the bubble, i saw people with 100 percent flawless up to date credentials get turned away because they were over 45 - happened more than once, and that's just the ones that made it to face to face interviews

i can still remember the face of a guy i put forward for hire and was told there were 'team fit' issues, the codewords for age

kind of made me sick

still does

rabbittone said "The last problem in this equation is finding qualified U.S. citizens in IT. Our educational system has been derelict for years in providing qualified IT graduates."

that's a bullshit cannard, now, before and during the bubble

always has been

IT, while having the potential for being an honorable and dignified occupation, has been implemented in a manner that degrades people in many ways

I'll never forget a 'death march pep rally' at a telecom in the mid/late 1990s - afterward, i walked out with a numb chill. The acceptance of what just occurred by many bothered me more than the event itself What WOULD make them say 'too much!'? (although i remember one australian guy who looked horrified during it)

a psycho VP lady, going though a not-so-funny 'gag'gift' bag, combining hypnotic/psychotic 'encouragement/threats/manipulation/intimidation - a jekyll and hyde rapid alternation, ending with a darkened auditorium and everyone getting a battery light out of their kit and holding it up in their right hand in a nazi salute (I'm not making any of this up, really happened, still have the little light)

it left me feeling that i would see fascism in this country in my lifetime - not figuaratively, but for real

 

[Rabbitone]

Quote from leela:

In this economy, many experience IT workers are out of work and willing to do more entry levels stuff even at H1-B pay. However, these Americans are not even considered.

You are right. Many fine IT professionals I know are out of work. My heart goes out to them.

I still receive job requests once or twice a week from recruiters pleading with me to come to back to work in IT. That happens because besides being an IT manager I’m a qualified DB2 and IMS mainframe DBA as well as a Data Architect. Finding these skills is very hard even in today’s job market because they don’t teach it anymore.

But, I love trading and I’m not going back to IT. So I forward those request to those I worked with and those who worked for me. These people would all be considered for these jobs and IMHO I doubt an H1-B would ever fill one.

 

[Rabbitone]

Quote from swtrader:

...
rabbittone said "The last problem in this equation is finding qualified U.S. citizens in IT. Our educational system has been derelict for years in providing qualified IT graduates."

that's a bullshit cannard, now, before and during the bubble

When you have to revert to terms like “…Bullshit Cannard…” it reflects badly on who you are and anything you say that may be worth reading…

And I must vehemently disagree with your response. America is filled with active IT business technology that is not taught in any school today. That is why even though I am retired to trade full time I receive emails, mail and countless phone calls each week looking for people with skills they do not teach anymore.

Take the IBM IMS mainframe database. A NY firm just hired a DBA who worked for me at $200k. This technology is not going away because it is to fast an efficient. Try to learn it. No schools. No books available. They have to special train people to keep this technology alive.

Try to find a college that teaches Database Architecture. They are few and far between. Our schools today put in minimal IT resources and teach C#. Try and find one that teaches database warehouse design that an IT department could use. There isn’t one.

 

[swtrader]

Quote from Rabbitone:

When you have to revert to terms like “…Bullshit Cannard…” it reflects badly on who you are and anything you say that may be worth reading…

And I must vehemently disagree with your response. America is filled with active IT business technology that is not taught in any school today. That is why even though I am retired to trade full time I receive emails, mail and countless phone calls each week looking for people with skills they do not teach anymore.

Take the IBM IMS mainframe database. A NY firm just hired a DBA who worked for me at $200k. This technology is not going away because it is to fast an efficient. Try to learn it. No schools. No books available. They have to special train people to keep this technology alive.

Try to find a college that teaches Database Architecture. They are few and far between. Our schools today put in minimal IT resources and teach C#. Try and find one that teaches database warehouse design that an IT department could use. There isn’t one.

bullshit canard is not too harsh a term for a lie that destroys people's lives and subjects them to discrimination in their own country

Quote from swtrader:

...
rabbittone said "The last problem in this equation is finding qualified U.S. citizens in IT. Our educational system has been derelict for years in providing qualified IT graduates."

that's a bullshit cannard, now, before and during the bubble

 

[pitz]

Rabbitone, well, the problem with H1-B is that, for a position that requires extensive training -- a H1-B will gladly spend a couple years training at $35k/year. While a citizen, graduated from, say, Stanford, Berkeley, or any of the other good CS programs, will require $100k to start, even though, in theory, they're just being 'trained'.

Employers have a completely messed up attitude towards training and employee development, and the government is aiding and abetting such a messed up attitude towards workers by allowing programs such as the H1-B visa.

 

[swtrader]

Quote from pitz:

Rabbitone, well, the problem with H1-B is that, for a position that requires extensive training -- a H1-B will gladly spend a couple years training at $35k/year. While a citizen, graduated from, say, Stanford, Berkeley, or any of the other good CS programs, will require $100k to start, even though, in theory, they're just being 'trained'.

Employers have a completely messed up attitude towards training and employee development, and the government is aiding and abetting such a messed up attitude towards workers by allowing programs such as the H1-B visa.

"Stanford, Berkeley, or any of the other good CS programs, will require $100k to start"

they're not getting that much to start

 

[aegis]

Quote from pitz:

While a citizen, graduated from, say, Stanford, Berkeley, or any of the other good CS programs, will require $100k to start, even though, in theory, they're just being 'trained'.

More like $50k, and if the education was free (or close to free), they'd be willing to start for less.

 

[Rabbitone]

Quote from pitz:

Rabbitone, well, the problem with H1-B is that, for a position that requires extensive training -- a H1-B will gladly spend a couple years training at $35k/year. While a citizen, graduated from, say, Stanford, Berkeley, or any of the other good CS programs, will require $100k to start, even though, in theory, they're just being 'trained'.

Employers have a completely messed up attitude towards training and employee development, and the government is aiding and abetting such a messed up attitude towards workers by allowing programs such as the H1-B visa.

I agree with you employers have played a major role in destroying IT training and employee development. During my last 10 years every time I requested anything that was “Training or Employee development” as an IT manager it was refused. The response came back from my management “…Why should I give employee X this expensive training for 2 weeks in Florida during this winter. This employee will jump ship (like all the rest) to get a higher paying job and then we will lose our investment ….” These employers today would rather have substandard work from a poorly trained employee than to pay for a high $$$ course only to see the employee leave.

I used H1-B to do Oracle DB maintenance. They were poorly trained to start. But many did an excellent job of learning from their mistakes. These tasks were the ones that regular DBA’s came in screaming that it was unfair of me to assign them. Many of these H1-Bs became more expert at doing a variety of DB maintenance than the regular DBA’s. This is how they infiltrate jobs – by becoming indispensable at $35K/year.

The government continues these H1-B programs because corporations continue to fill their campaign pockets with loot. Greed among our politicians is at an all time high and going higher….

 

[swtrader]

Quote from Rabbitone:

I agree with you employers have played a major role in destroying IT training and employee development. During my last 10 years every time I requested anything that was “Training or Employee development” as an IT manager it was refused. The response came back from my management “…Why should I give employee X this expensive training for 2 weeks in Florida during this winter. This employee will jump ship (like all the rest) to get a higher paying job and then we will lose our investment ….” These employers today would rather have substandard work from a poorly trained employee than to pay for a high $$$ course only to see the employee leave.

I used H1-B to do Oracle DB maintenance. They were poorly trained to start. But many did an excellent job of learning from their mistakes. These tasks were the ones that regular DBA’s came in screaming that it was unfair of me to assign them. Many of these H1-Bs became more expert at doing a variety of DB maintenance than the regular DBA’s. This is how they infiltrate jobs – by becoming indispensable at $35K/year.

The government continues these H1-B programs because corporations continue to fill their campaign pockets with loot. Greed among our politicians is at an all time high and going higher….

Most IT workers dont get formal training (after graduating from school), and they dont even learn on the job - they just 'eat' a boatload of hours on the job

I remember my first powerbuilder project - I had bought the software, book, and learned it on my own (before the project) - then i worked 80+ hour weeks to get it done - probably only delivered 50 hours of work per week, but i was only paid for 40. I already had years of experience, not everything that is done on a project is specific to the syntax of the new language (design etc)

that example was far more typical than not - and IT workers will go through this continually throught their career, until they are finally pushed out for good, as more IT shops in their town (and region) are closed to non-Indian

and my first manager i ever had even admitted that he sabatoged people's skill sets so they would stay

couldnt believe he told me that, i was speachless (even though I already knew he did it)

 

[syswizard]

A COMMENT ON THIS THREAD:
Wow, it's great to see so many FORMER IT folks now doing trading either full or part time.
Sign of the times.
Indeed, that field is so dead for anyone aspiring to be anything...let alone make a good living. It's cooked, finished, gone-for-good.
One question remains:
WHICH PROFESSIONAL FIELD WILL FALL NEXT ?