10% unemployment but H1B visas accelerating
- Thread starter noob_trad3r
- Start date
Yep, been there and done that. However, corps still think they're a "bargain".Quote from elaineg:
I live in Scottsdale and at noon and four o'clock it looks like the streets of Bombay. I have rented to several of these visa holders and they are not extremely intelligent and have no conversational skills.
In addition they have poor sanitary skills and are hard to understand at meetings. Caremark in Scottsdale must have hired the whole quota for 2010.
I rarely write outside of the options section, but this thread is so full of it that I had to chime in.
Given how much effort, money and time it takes to secure a visa for your worker (be it H1B, L1 or EB1), it's pretty clear that employers are doing it because they can't find qualified Americans. It's a fact, accept it and keep going. Also, while I can't vouch for other industries, in finance H1B workers are making top dollar, so there is no wage depreciation.
The H1B, as well as L1 and EB1 visas, are just a sign of a broader trend. If you walk into any good hedge fund (for example), you will find that at least 50% of people working there are either immigrants themselfs or are second generation Americans. Somehow, the trend is that they work harder, are better educated and are more interested in their work.
From my college years, I recall that Americans were a minority at any science course that was not required for pre-med. And we are talking of the Big H which supposedly collects the best of the best - I dread to think what the situation is like at the lesser-name schools. Even in medicine, my Mrs said that in her MD/PhD program, 6 out of 10 students were second-generation Americans. My own PhD program was "majority-owned" by Chineese, followed by Indians, with some sprinkles of Russians and Western-Europeans.
So, it seems that the real question is not how to prevent these people from coming here, it's how to get more of them to come here.
Given how much effort, money and time it takes to secure a visa for your worker (be it H1B, L1 or EB1), it's pretty clear that employers are doing it because they can't find qualified Americans. It's a fact, accept it and keep going. Also, while I can't vouch for other industries, in finance H1B workers are making top dollar, so there is no wage depreciation.
The H1B, as well as L1 and EB1 visas, are just a sign of a broader trend. If you walk into any good hedge fund (for example), you will find that at least 50% of people working there are either immigrants themselfs or are second generation Americans. Somehow, the trend is that they work harder, are better educated and are more interested in their work.
From my college years, I recall that Americans were a minority at any science course that was not required for pre-med. And we are talking of the Big H which supposedly collects the best of the best - I dread to think what the situation is like at the lesser-name schools. Even in medicine, my Mrs said that in her MD/PhD program, 6 out of 10 students were second-generation Americans. My own PhD program was "majority-owned" by Chineese, followed by Indians, with some sprinkles of Russians and Western-Europeans.
So, it seems that the real question is not how to prevent these people from coming here, it's how to get more of them to come here.
Sle, after such a brilliant rebuttal it's apparent that your a graduate of the great India U!! Like most of the people of that country that's been my "privilege" to meet. You seem to know everything about everything, even about things you have no clue about! I can personally tell you after having quite a few H1b work for me, they were the most inept programmers at our company!! And finally, the whole H1b visa thing is more of a management/political thing than anything else!! The main purpose being, getting qualified people for next to minimum wage. The world needs to realize the global economy thing just don't work & never will!!
French, actually, though I've been in the US for over 30 years. But it's ok, just switch the insults to the "frog legs" and "wine at lunch". Oh, and since I am a Harvard grad, don't forget to call me an elitist pig.
In any case, I have no clue what's happening in the IT business, but my 15 years of experience on Wall Street (both sell-side and buy-side) tell a very different tale. Most Indian programmers I've worked with have been smart, inventive and hard working. Of course, there are exceptions. Then again, the Americans that I've worked with are very different from the ones present in this thread. Must be a selection bias of some sort.
Blaming other people is very comfortable. You bought a house you can't afford? Blame the bankers. You don't have the qualifications to find a good job? Blame the immigrants. The country can't get spending under control? Blame Chineese. You can't trade for sh*t ?Blame the HFTs, hedge funds, big banks etc.
As someone who has been in the IT filed for over 20 years, let me say that everything you wrote about H1B (or other) Visas above is less than truthful. There are plenty of qualified Americans availble for jobs. Companies are hiring H1B Visa employees because they can save significant amounts of money on salary and these H1B employees are not able to leave their jobs for another employer. Basically since 2000 or so these H1B Visa employees are treated as cheap "locked-in" slave labor in the U.S. leading to IT field salary compression. There are videos on YouTube showing how law firms teach corporations to deny American job applicants so they can hire a cheap H1B Visa worker.
The Corps have long gotten around the H1B limits.
They open shop abroad and save a bundle.
Many of the H1B's are the cream of the crop working for the corps and rewarded with a promotion and transfer to the US. Many are brought here to manage and coordinate efforts between their US and foreign operations.
What would you rather see?
A. More off shoring and foreign operations.
B. Have 65,000 jobs created each year here and have the corps be responsible for sponsoring and screening the talent.
We wouldn't be much of a country if we had closed our borders from 1900 - 2000. The immigration policies originally were successful at attracting the cream of the crop talent from abroad. Their brain drain was our gain.
The federally administered system is flawed... Moving from the pure talent selection process and allowing our new citizens to sponsor their kin. The corps run a tight selection process and ante up to gain and maintain their competitive edge. The fed programs open the Immigration flood gates.
The challenge we face is to prevent A and have the corps invest, hire and expand operations here in the US utilizing our workforce.
Problem is we are not competitive in the global scheme of things. Government contractors that are required to hire US citizens and deliver US made products are the exception but only because of the contract constraints... hence the trillion dollar fighter jets and $275 hammers.
The corps are crying they are taxed too much, expenses and labor costs are too high here compared to the deals the foreign govts are offering. Google Free Trade Zones and checkout the incentives we are competing with. Our states are already cutting deals and bending laws to attract corps to open operations here and losing.
Than you have the likes of GE that know how to play vendor roulette well pitting states against states and countries against countries for the most advantageous deal. 57,000 page tax return and we end up owing them money. This trend is only going to get bigger as our states become more desperate just to retain the corps here and fend off foreign incentive deals.
65000 H1B's are not the problem... the type of operation may be.
If these guys are brought here to manage, coordinate and facilitate moving more of the corp's operations offshore we lose.
They open shop abroad and save a bundle.
Many of the H1B's are the cream of the crop working for the corps and rewarded with a promotion and transfer to the US. Many are brought here to manage and coordinate efforts between their US and foreign operations.
What would you rather see?
A. More off shoring and foreign operations.
B. Have 65,000 jobs created each year here and have the corps be responsible for sponsoring and screening the talent.
We wouldn't be much of a country if we had closed our borders from 1900 - 2000. The immigration policies originally were successful at attracting the cream of the crop talent from abroad. Their brain drain was our gain.
The federally administered system is flawed... Moving from the pure talent selection process and allowing our new citizens to sponsor their kin. The corps run a tight selection process and ante up to gain and maintain their competitive edge. The fed programs open the Immigration flood gates.
The challenge we face is to prevent A and have the corps invest, hire and expand operations here in the US utilizing our workforce.
Problem is we are not competitive in the global scheme of things. Government contractors that are required to hire US citizens and deliver US made products are the exception but only because of the contract constraints... hence the trillion dollar fighter jets and $275 hammers.
The corps are crying they are taxed too much, expenses and labor costs are too high here compared to the deals the foreign govts are offering. Google Free Trade Zones and checkout the incentives we are competing with. Our states are already cutting deals and bending laws to attract corps to open operations here and losing.
Than you have the likes of GE that know how to play vendor roulette well pitting states against states and countries against countries for the most advantageous deal. 57,000 page tax return and we end up owing them money. This trend is only going to get bigger as our states become more desperate just to retain the corps here and fend off foreign incentive deals.
65000 H1B's are not the problem... the type of operation may be.
If these guys are brought here to manage, coordinate and facilitate moving more of the corp's operations offshore we lose.
You're mixing up two different issues.
In any country, it seems like the immigrants and their children work harder and seem to get ahead more than the native folks, but that is due to selection bias: the ambitious are always the ones who look for better.
H1-B and related visas are an entirely different issue. I remember being startled when twice within a couple of months I had two different Indian immigrants working in two different banks complain to me about the dire effect all these imported Indian programmers were having on IT.
In the IT world no one who isn't an Indian working under one of these visas is safe. It's seen as repetitive drudge work that should be handed down to these folks, while the natives and regular immigrant folks work managing them, and their offshore colleagues, of course.
So, if it's drudge work, you're going to tell me it can't be done by US folks because no one in the US is qualified? Obviously, no.
This slices an entire rung of the ladder into the middle class off for US citizens and legal immigrants to the US. It also depreciates the value of a degree in computer science; no sane US citizen would want to take such a course now, which of course means the shortage these companies complain of is now here.
The Indian central bank, by the way, has been engaged from time to time in heavily buying dollars and selling rupees in much the same way as the Chinese central bank. The purpose is the same, except in the Indian case the export is people - whether working in India or here on one of these visa programs.
Fervent belivers of free market capitalism complaining about a friction free labor market
Fervent belivers of Kenyesian debt fueled economies complaining about the size of the national debt
Fervent belivers of social security complaining about social services while cashing in their government issued checks
Fervent belivers of large military comaplaining about foreign military interventions
Fervent belivers of smaller government complaining governent officials not doing enough to regulate wall street
The list of dichotomies is endless here on ET
Fervent belivers of Kenyesian debt fueled economies complaining about the size of the national debt
Fervent belivers of social security complaining about social services while cashing in their government issued checks
Fervent belivers of large military comaplaining about foreign military interventions
Fervent belivers of smaller government complaining governent officials not doing enough to regulate wall street
The list of dichotomies is endless here on ET
Ah yes, the standard corporate bullshit. There have been cases where companies have forced their employees to train their own H-1b replacements (otherwise no severance pay), then fired them. Companies hire H-1b labor because it's cheap indentured servitude, not because there aren't Americans able to do the work.