10 Days With TopStepTrader

[Maverick74]

Quote from smallStops:

The thing about piggbacking is traders usually do not like that, and more often than not - even if there are other benefits - they simply avoid the firm and never recommend the firm to others.
So if TST is in it for the long term , after all they can build up to fund million+ trading accounts down the road ( with 1000$ enrollment fees) , this piggbacking will be the end of their business, all the more than just from the DOM ( futures) a trader will sooner of later find about it. Then it will suffice of one thread and TST business model will be ruined.
Just my 2 cents.

TST is not piggybacking. For one, they don't even ALLOW swing trading. Two, if they tried to piggyback their daytraders they would killed on commissions. Daytraders are highly erratic, even the best of them. They go through hot and cold streaks. By the time they recognized trader XYZ has a hot hand, most of the money would already be made and he would probably start losing money every day. There is absolutely no way one could cherry pick the best daytraders in "advance". That's the key word here, in advance. Of course it looks easy after the fact.

 

[volente_00]

Quote from Maverick74:

TST is not piggybacking. For one, they don't even ALLOW swing trading. Two, if they tried to piggyback their daytraders they would killed on commissions. Daytraders are highly erratic, even the best of them. They go through hot and cold streaks. By the time they recognized trader XYZ has a hot hand, most of the money would already be made and he would probably start losing money every day. There is absolutely no way one could cherry pick the best daytraders in "advance". That's the key word here, in advance. Of course it looks easy after the fact.

You don't need to swing trade to be piggy backed.
If they have a trader who shows a long term positive expectancy then I think they will shadow them.
Killed on commissions ?

They already charge their traders 20% higher than a retail trader pays.
If they are set up right they are paying even lower than what a retail trader pays.


Given enough data points over a length of time one could very safely and easily piggy back the most profitable traders.

Given the very low drawdown they require before getting booted it would not be hard to run a low risk algo that does this.

I think a more probable scenario is they are data mining and trying to use computers to reverse engineer what the consistent and profitable traders are doing.


Hopefully Patak will chime in and go on record if this is done

But I bet if you read the small print in the trading contract , it gives the option to do this.

 

[Peternam]

Quote from volente_00:

You don't need to swing trade to be piggy backed.
If they have a trader who shows a long term positive expectancy then I think they will shadow them.
Killed on commissions ?

They already charge their traders 20% higher than a retail trader pays.
If they are set up right they are paying even lower than what a retail trader pays.


Given enough data points over a length of time one could very safely and easily piggy back the most profitable traders.

Given the very low drawdown they require before getting booted it would not be hard to run a low risk algo that does this.

I think a more probable scenario is they are data mining and trying to use computers to reverse engineer what the consistent and profitable traders are doing.


Hopefully Patak will chime in and go on record if this is done

But I bet if you read the small print in the trading contract , it gives the option to do this.

let us see the contract...

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from volente_00:

You don't need to swing trade to be piggy backed.
If they have a trader who shows a long term positive expectancy then I think they will shadow them.
Killed on commissions ?

They already charge their traders 20% higher than a retail trader pays.
If they are set up right they are paying even lower than what a retail trader pays.


Given enough data points over a length of time one could very safely and easily piggy back the most profitable traders.

Given the very low drawdown they require before getting booted it would not be hard to run a low risk algo that does this.

I think a more probable scenario is they are data mining and trying to use computers to reverse engineer what the consistent and profitable traders are doing.


Hopefully Patak will chime in and go on record if this is done

But I bet if you read the small print in the trading contract , it gives the option to do this.

This is the kind of crap fantasy that people on message boards believe along with the mythical unicorn. And what makes you think that if joe sixpack who can easily navigate his one lot in and out of crude oil that suddenly they will be able to execute at the same prices 10, 50 or 100 lots? Most active traders avg maybe a tick or two net in profit over large number of trades. So if these guys had to pay even one tick over to get in and out it would render the strategy useless. And you obviously have NOT spent a lot of time around a lot of traders. I've been in the business a while and if I cut off three of my fingers on one hand, I could still use that hand to count the number of profitable intra-day futures traders. And these combines are showing just that. It's laughable that you think it would be so easy to navigate through the noise of data and find it oh so clear who the obvious good traders are and be able to piggyback them and live happily every after. Only on ET folks, only on ET.

 

[HurricaneUS]

Quote from volente_00:

...I think a more probable scenario is they are data mining and trying to use computers to reverse engineer what the consistent and profitable traders are doing.....

even better if the successful trader went through their "university".....then there's nothing to reverse engineer..just look at their trades or ask them.....add to the university course curriculum...increase "trader development package" tuition....wink wink.....rinse and repeat

 

[Pekelo]

Quote from smallStops:

The thing about piggbacking is traders usually do not like that,

...and that's why it is not advertised.

But also some traders don't care, as long as they think they get a good deal, they are happy.

 

[Pekelo]

Dude, if you want to have a discussion with me, you might want to try to find relevant facts or logical arguments.

Quote from nazzdack:

you gotta be kidding, aren't you?
2) He lost more than $900, towards a daily loss limit of $1000, six days out of 14.
3) Theoretically, he would have hit the weekly loss limit three times
4) On day-9, he held a position for ~6.5 hours and made 1 tick of profit.
5) After 12 days, he was down ~$1300.
6) when funded but there are a lot of "buts" that cause me concern.

1. Why would I? I understand you don't know piggybacking.
2. Why is that relevant for the piggybacking issue?
3. There is no weekly loss limit in the Combine. And relevance?
4. Relevance?
5. Assuming he performs in the long run similarly as he ended the Combine, interval fluctuations are not so relevant.
6. Your concern was duly noted.

I will explain it for you more slowly: He is a good piggyback candidate because he trades a liquid instrument very infrequently with long periods of holding times. End of story...

 

[Pekelo]

Quote from volente_00:


Hopefully Patak will chime in and go on record if this is done

I already asked him about this, and he avoided the answer by pretending not to understand it. It was funny because:

1. If after 10+ (or whatever Patak has) years of market experience someone doesn't know what piggybacking is, they should walk the Walk of Shame.
2. I actually explained it in the question, so there was no room for confusion.

He could have given me a simple no for answer, but he decided to be vogue about it. That kind of answers it for me.....
And you are probably right, legally it is probably covered in the contract, so they can use the signals any way they want...

Quote from Peternam:

let us see the contract...

it is in the contract that they don't talk about the contract.

 

[volente_00]

Quote from Maverick74:

This is the kind of crap fantasy that people on message boards believe along with the mythical unicorn. And what makes you think that if joe sixpack who can easily navigate his one lot in and out of crude oil that suddenly they will be able to execute at the same prices 10, 50 or 100 lots? Most active traders avg maybe a tick or two net in profit over large number of trades. So if these guys had to pay even one tick over to get in and out it would render the strategy useless. And you obviously have NOT spent a lot of time around a lot of traders. I've been in the business a while and if I cut off three of my fingers on one hand, I could still use that hand to count the number of profitable intra-day futures traders. And these combines are showing just that. It's laughable that you think it would be so easy to navigate through the noise of data and find it oh so clear who the obvious good traders are and be able to piggyback them and live happily every after. Only on ET folks, only on ET.

You are either ignorant or just like to troll with bullshit.
So according to you there are only 3 or less profitable futures traders at jump or kingstree?

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from volente_00:

You are either ignorant or just like to troll with bullshit.
So according to you there are only 3 or less profitable futures traders at jump or kingstree?

No, those are the number of profitable futures traders I have met over the 1000 or so I've been surrounded by. And a little fyi for ya, if you think the old kingstree traders or Jump guys are punting directional trades in futures, YOU are the one that is ignorant. I know the guys at Jump well and at their peak, their algos probably did 5% of the volume at the CME. Kingstree went up in flames years ago, nothing is left of them. At their peak in the early 00's they were a huge spreading firm. NEITHER of these firms represent your argument.

I will say this again, if you think TST or ANY firm is going to waste a single minute trying to piggyback at BEST a 50/50 scratch directional futures trader, you sir are absolutely FUCKING nuts. And I mean that with all due respect of course.