not at all. golden goose is not so golden anymore. goldman and other financial institutions have been diversifying out of trading since 2008 crash
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1/4% Tax on all stock trades pushed in NY Times today
- Thread starter seasideheights
- Start date
SAAS and program management with large customers, never seen an actual dollar bill in revenue. The vast majority of companies in the startup world are getting their revenue this way, even if they have consumer "customers". The only real cash companies I can think of that would be in a position to under report are places like mom and pop stores or individual service providers like your lawn guy. If you're a real company of any size at all you'll need access to funding, you'll be concerned about your brand, and if you're profitable so you need to pay taxes it just won't make sense to try to cheat on them for a few extra bucks.I've explained it in my post: majority of small business owners I know do cash transactions that go underreported in tax returns. FYI, top 1% of people pay 40% of taxes in America. I guess you are the minority in terms of taxes.
Just curious what kind of business with no cash transactions do you have?
Do you think FTT is a good idea?SAAS and program management with large customers, never seen an actual dollar bill in revenue. The vast majority of companies in the startup world are getting their revenue this way, even if they have consumer "customers". The only real cash companies I can think of that would be in a position to under report are places like mom and pop stores or individual service providers like your lawn guy. If you're a real company of any size at all you'll need access to funding, you'll be concerned about your brand, and if you're profitable so you need to pay taxes it just won't make sense to try to cheat on them for a few extra bucks.
I think a straight FTT is a horrible idea. I think a tax on canceled orders may be an OK idea in theory, but it's super complex and easily gamed by things like making market makers exempt but allowing HFT shops to become "market makers" in name only to get around it. It's arcane and complicated enough that it doesn't lend itself to legislation given the sound bite attention level and gross misconceptions out there. Especially when we live in a world where expertise is somehow viewed as bad by the anti-intellectual crowd, so we wouldn't want people with actual expertise in financial markets to help craft something that would address these nuances. Meaning we'd have people with no experience in financial markets who didn't know wtf they were doing come up with something that would be suboptimal at best.Do you think FTT is a good idea?
Why you think tax on people having changed their minds is ok idea?I think a straight FTT is a horrible idea. I think a tax on canceled orders may be an OK idea in theory, but it's super complex and easily gamed by things like making market makers exempt but allowing HFT shops to become "market makers" in name only to get around it. It's arcane and complicated enough that it doesn't lend itself to legislation given the sound bite attention level and gross misconceptions out there.
Are you saying that govt is late to the party and we all should be out of trading business?not at all. golden goose is not so golden anymore. goldman and other financial institutions have been diversifying out of trading since 2008 crash
If I charge you a $.00001 tax on changing your mind as a retail trader it will add about a nickle to your annual trading costs. It will add a significant amount to the costs of those submitting thousands of orders a minute, and influence their behavior. Smart well meaning people can disagree if HFT helps or hurts the markets. After looking at a lot of data on it I've concluded that they hurt so I'd personally be for something that dissuaded them from the worst of their excesses. However, I agree it's not a cut and dry answer so if you thought otherwise after studying the same data, it would make sense to me that you could come to a different conclusion. In the end I guess I'd be effectively supporting your conclusion anyway for the reasons I outlined re the difficulties of implementing a cx tax.Why you think tax on people having changed their minds is ok idea?
I do trade cancellations quite a dozen times a day. But what does it have to do with the govt?If I charge you a $.00001 tax on changing your mind as a retail trader it will add about a nickle to your annual trading costs. It will add a significant amount to the costs of those submitting thousands of orders a minute, and influence their behavior. Smart well meaning people can disagree if HFT helps or hurts the markets. After looking at a lot of data on it I've concluded that they hurt so I'd personally be for something that dissuaded them from the worst of their excesses. However, I agree it's not a cut and dry answer so if you thought otherwise after studying the same data, it would make sense to me that you could come to a different conclusion. In the end I guess I'd be effectively supporting your conclusion anyway for the reasons I outlined re the difficulties of implementing a cx tax.
Are you ok if the govt would tax all business inquiries of your potential customers of your computer services business?
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I feel like you're trying to pick a fight here. I frankly could give f*&k all if the govt levied a .00001 tax on inquiries to my company, since it get a few dozen a year my only problem would be figuring out how to pay less than a cent. I'm also not sure that anyone has ever complained that inquiries to my company cause any external impact to anyone else in the world, nor is it likely that anyone ever will. I also do dozens of trade cancellations a day. The level of cancellation tax proposed would add up to a couple dollars a year for both of us at most, just to put that in perspective.I do trade cancellations quite a dozen of times a day. But what does it have to do with the govt?
Are you ok if the govt would tax all business inquiries of your potential customers of your computer services business?
As I indicated, I feel HFT is not in the best interest of anyone but the HF traders and to the detriment of the rest of us. I acknowledge that others might not share that belief and that there are good arguments on either side. If I believe HFT is damaging, however, than it is rational to also believe in measures that disincentivize the behavior that I believe is damaging. That's what the government does here in the U.S., from market manipulation laws to laws the prohibit pyramid schemes to any of thousands of other laws that "intrude" on someone in order to prevent them from taking advantage of the rest of our society. You could disincentivize HFT by passing a law banning HFT, which I think is draconian and unnecessary. You could also craft tax law to discourage behavior that damages the majority of our society and encourages behavior that helps it, something that we do in thousands of instances in the U.S. In this case I'm also against that because I think it's too hard to do correctly.
This is how the world works, it's not some but "us against the man" fight. It's rational thinking about what works best for us as a society and coming to consensus to implement it. It's government intervention when market forces have shown themselves inadequate in protecting parts of the population from predatory behavior. As I said, smart well meaning people can disagree if HFT is predatory behavior. However you seem to be disagreeing that there is any role for the government in preventing predatory behavior of any kind. That's a much broader argument, not one I have time for today.
I feel like you're trying to pick a fight here. I frankly could give f*&k all if the govt levied a .00001 tax on inquiries to my company, since it get a few dozen a year my only problem would be figuring out how to pay less than a cent. I'm also not sure that anyone has ever complained that inquiries to my company cause any external impact to anyone else in the world, nor is it likely that anyone ever will. I also do dozens of trade cancellations a day. The level of cancellation tax proposed would add up to a couple dollars a year for both of us at most, just to put that in perspective.
As I indicated, I feel HFT is not in the best interest of anyone but the HF traders and to the detriment of the rest of us. I acknowledge that others might not share that belief and that there are good arguments on either side. If I believe HFT is damaging, however, than it is rational to also believe in measures that disincentivize the behavior that I believe is damaging. That's what the government does here in the U.S., from market manipulation laws to laws the prohibit pyramid schemes to any of thousands of other laws that "intrude" on someone in order to prevent them from taking advantage of the rest of our society. You could disincentivize HFT by passing a law banning HFT, which I think is draconian and unnecessary. You could also craft tax law to discourage behavior that damages the majority of our society and encourages behavior that helps it, something that we do in thousands of instances in the U.S. In this case I'm also against that because I think it's too hard to do correctly.
This is how the world works, it's not some but "us against the man" fight. It's rational thinking about what works best for us as a society and coming to consensus to implement it. It's government intervention when market forces have shown themselves inadequate in protecting parts of the population from predatory behavior. As I said, smart well meaning people can disagree if HFT is predatory behavior. However you seem to be disagreeing that there is any role for the government in preventing predatory behavior of any kind. That's a much broader argument, not one I have time for today.
What fight? I am just trying to find a logic in your logic with your help. If the govt wants to charge cancellation fees for financial transactions, so why not do it for any business like the one you own. If you feel like it's an uphill battle for you, forget about it.