Successful traders: what were the early days of starting out like?

buylo · May 20, 2010

Quote from TrueProp:

Wow. That is persistence! There are not too many people that would have or could have stuck with it as long as you did. Congratulations man.

One question though, although I am in full agreement that trading will always be hard work, I believe there is a time when you finally "get it". And many friends of mine would agree that there is a time that you "get it". Now if you asked me what "it" is, I would have some difficulty explaining that. Seems like a good thread idea.

I have been profitable for 10 years and have made and lost a condo in a day......not even a day...5 minutes (loser). I have come to realize that things change constantly. All lessons are humbling and relearned. Getting it, I guess, is knowing what you are looking at to drive the market and sticking to your guns until it totally flies off the track and does not work anymore. Then what?? Well, change your strategy and/or wait until your trade comes back.

This is not a 9 - 5 job. You cannot come in on any given day and work hard to make money. Lots of times if your trade is not there, sit on your hands then. I like to think that if you are not a buyer or seller, you do not have to be looking to do the exact opposite if your setup fails. Trading can be a spectator sport as well. Have your opinions that will trigger being a buyer or seller, but also have scenarios (consolodations you recognize??) that tell you to absolutely keep your hands inside the ride. Can't buy it, can't sell it. Sorry if your a trading junkie and can't stay off the pipe for a day or 2. It will happen and there will be days, weeks, and even years where you cannot figure things out consistently. Mental meat grinder my friends, be ready for it. And even when you are, it's still tough to deal with it.

Always stay positive.

Redneck · May 20, 2010

fwiw.......

Having a financial planner lose a huge chunk of my retirement motivated me toward trading

I barely knew where Wall Street was, let alone understood what trading was about (btw I still strive to learn everyday â for what I donât know about Wall Street / the financial industry exponentially out shadows what I do)

Starting outâ¦

I attended a couple of formal (at least as formal as it gets I suppose) classes

I read everything about Trading, TA, Indicators, FA,â¦

You name it I probably have the bookâ¦, I know how just about every indicator is supposed to workâ¦, I can read a companyâs balance sheet/ prospectus as easy as a dime novel (note to self btw I need to have a bonfire)

Thinking I knew enough I started trading, and winning â easy peasy â so I thought
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thenâ¦

I began losing â regularly and big

And went thru the next 18 months doubting and questioning âeveryâ thing â most of all me

I reread everythingâ¦ I search and search for helpâ¦ I spent 20 hour days studying (literally) â week after week, month after monthâ¦ trying to get itâ¦.

Out of shear desperation I subscribed to a few stock picking web sites â in hopes one of them would help if only a littleâ¦

I wasnât proud â I would ask for help from whoever would listen that I thought âknewââ¦ I got ignoredâ¦ laughed atâ¦ lied toâ¦ ridiculedâ¦.taken advantage ofâ¦..

And none of it did any good to further my trading, or stop my losingâ¦.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luckily I finally stopped chasing my ass, sat down, internalized, and thought my way thru why I was losing â short answerâ¦.

Because I was not specifically framing up each trade (creating context)â¦, then placing a trade â and either letting a winner run till it stoppedâ¦., or immediately exiting â when the reason for placing that trade (within my context) was invalidated â iow exiting immediately once the trade failed

It took a heck of a lot of internal work just to figure this simple concept out â and even more work to reprogram myself to rigorously follow itâ¦â¦

So time passes and Iâve come full circleâ¦.

Iâve dumped most everything I initially studied..., Iâve simplifiedâ¦, I now have specific contextâ¦, I now trade exactly what I see (well most of the time â because I still sometimes form an opinion â often to my determent)â¦, I now immediately exit when a trade fails (unless I have my useless opinion going)â¦, I now let winners run till they stop runningâ¦.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fwiw and imho â a few noteworthy aspects of tradingâ¦.

Create precise/ specific context â as the market is completely devoid of most contextâ¦ We MUST have context â if we are to succeed in this environmentâ¦

(btw Please do not interpret precise/ specific as âperfectâ â perfect does not exist nor is it necessary)

Always remain opinion-less

Trade what you see â price going up/ not going down â go longâ¦ price going down/ not going up â go shortâ¦ price not going up or down â sit on your handsâ¦ always within your contextâ¦

Stay in a trade as long as you see price going in your favor â exit when it stops â always within your context

Exit immediately when a trade fails â always within your context

Do not change your context while trading â do use multiple timeframes to create and confirm your context

Always remain open â to learning â and to new possibilitiesâ¦

Take control, accept responsibility, be accountableâ¦

Whatever the lesson â it is not yours â till you work to make it yoursâ¦ (do not be fooled/ lulled into thinking otherwise â the market will expose this deficiency in spades)

Pay it forward â the best youâre ableâ¦ (along with many other benefits â it does your heart good)

Keep it real (no matter how bitter â it is always best)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aside

Someone asked in another thread why noobs make moneyâ¦.

Imo itâs because they have a clear mind and trade exactly what they seeâ¦ they exit when a trade fails (likely because theyâre scared to some extent)â¦ and if they are real lucky â they will let a winner run to some extent â at least till they get scared and exitâ¦

In short â They do all the right things â for all the wrong reasonsâ¦..

Oh but then they get some of that good ole experience (and some come up-ins) and progress on to the next stage â whereâ¦

We (the more learned??) keep thinking price can never go there â and fade it (oh how many times have we seen price reverse - damn just not this time though)

We (the more learned??) think price is going to reverse â so we stay in a loser longer than we shouldâ¦ (damn in didn't again)

OR (and even better)

We think weâve put enough due diligence in (justifying it nine ways to Sunday â as we are learned after all) that this trade has just got to work â so we stay in loser longer than we shouldâ¦.

Unfortunately it never really matters why we stay in a loser longer than we should â weâll end up broke just the same â periodâ¦

Then

We (the more learned??) become so gun shy/ so snake bit/ so nervous â that we start exiting our winners quickly â just so we wonât have to deal with the crap a loser bringsâ¦ Very understandableâ¦, and Very sad â imho

In short â we (the more learned??) do all the wrong things â for all the wrong reasons..

Unfortunately this self defeating behavior becomes a self feeding loop â that exacerbates itself â over and over and over - thru our own actionsâ¦

It is at this stage that trading exacts the greatest toll on a personâs psycheâ¦, on a personâs healthâ¦, on a personâs family/ relationshipsâ¦, a personâs accountâ¦. It is also where we are most susceptible to the vultures in this businessâ¦

We will either quit â or push onâ¦.

Assuming we push on, break the cycle and get past the aforementioned phase â then we stand a real good chance of succeedingâ¦

For it is then we can begin to see none of it really matters â and it is also then we can start thinking, acting, and being â a traderâ¦

Regards
RN

buylo · May 20, 2010

Much sense, Redneck.

I like your 3rd paragraph, talking about simplifying. When we start we have limited and narrow knowledge..........it then expands on all that we see, hear, feel and study. Then we must narrow that knowledge down to what works for each of us.

The early days are about learning your process. And "getting it" is knowing it's a never ending process and committing oneself to it......imho.

Lots of people have told me they want ot try trading. I'm like, "Try trading??" Quit your job, dump your girlfriend and start eating Ramon noodles my friend. Commit to the process.

Eddiefl · May 20, 2010

Quote from Redneck trader:

fwiw.......

Having a financial planner lose a huge chunk of my retirement motivated me toward trading

I barely knew where Wall Street was, let alone understood what trading was about (btw I still strive to learn everyday â for what I donât know about Wall Street / the financial industry exponentially out shadows what I do)

Starting outâ¦

I attended a couple of formal (at least as formal as it gets I suppose) classes

I read everything about Trading, TA, Indicators, FA,â¦

You name it I probably have the bookâ¦, I know how just about every indicator is supposed to workâ¦, I can read a companyâs balance sheet/ prospectus as easy as a dime novel (note to self btw I need to have a bonfire)

Thinking I knew enough I started trading, and winning â easy peasy â so I thought
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thenâ¦

I began losing â regularly and big

And went thru the next 18 months doubting and questioning âeveryâ thing â most of all me

I reread everythingâ¦ I search and search for helpâ¦ I spent 20 hour days studying (literally) â week after week, month after monthâ¦ trying to get itâ¦.

Out of shear desperation I subscribed to a few stock picking web sites â in hopes one of them would help if only a littleâ¦

I wasnât proud â I would ask for help from whoever would listen that I thought âknewââ¦ I got ignoredâ¦ laughed atâ¦ lied toâ¦ ridiculedâ¦.taken advantage ofâ¦..

And none of it did any good to further my trading, or stop my losingâ¦.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luckily I finally stopped chasing my ass, sat down, internalized, and thought my way thru why I was losing â short answerâ¦.

Because I was not specifically framing up each trade (creating context)â¦, then placing a trade â and either letting a winner run till it stoppedâ¦., or immediately exiting â when the reason for placing that trade (within my context) was invalidated â iow exiting immediately once the trade failed

It took a heck of a lot of internal work just to figure this simple concept out â and even more work to reprogram myself to rigorously follow itâ¦â¦

So time passes and Iâve come full circleâ¦.

Iâve dumped most everything I initially studied..., Iâve simplifiedâ¦, I now have specific contextâ¦, I now trade exactly what I see (well most of the time â because I still sometimes form an opinion â often to my determent)â¦, I now immediately exit when a trade fails (unless I have my useless opinion going)â¦, I now let winners run till they stop runningâ¦.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fwiw and imho â a few noteworthy aspects of tradingâ¦.

Create precise/ specific context â as the market is completely devoid of most contextâ¦ We MUST have context â if we are to succeed in this environmentâ¦

(btw Please do not interpret precise/ specific as âperfectâ â perfect does not exist nor is it necessary)

Always remain opinion-less

Trade what you see â price going up/ not going down â go longâ¦ price going down/ not going up â go shortâ¦ price not going up or down â sit on your handsâ¦ always within your contextâ¦

Stay in a trade as long as you see price going in your favor â exit when it stops â always within your context

Exit immediately when a trade fails â always within your context

Do not change your context while trading â do use multiple timeframes to create and confirm your context

Always remain open â to learning â and to new possibilitiesâ¦

Take control, accept responsibility, be accountableâ¦

Whatever the lesson â it is not yours â till you work to make it yoursâ¦ (do not be fooled/ lulled into thinking otherwise â the market will expose this deficiency in spades)

Pay it forward â the best youâre ableâ¦ (along with many other benefits â it does your heart good)

Keep it real (no matter how bitter â it is always best)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aside

Someone asked in another thread why noobs make moneyâ¦.

Imo itâs because they have a clear mind and trade exactly what they seeâ¦ they exit when a trade fails (likely because theyâre scared to some extent)â¦ and if they are real lucky â they will let a winner run to some extent â at least till they get scared and exitâ¦

In short â They do all the right things â for all the wrong reasonsâ¦..

Oh but then they get some of that good ole experience (and some come up-ins) and progress on to the next stage â whereâ¦

We (the more learned??) keep thinking price can never go there â and fade it (oh how many times have we seen price reverse - damn just not this time though)

We (the more learned??) think price is going to reverse â so we stay in a loser longer than we shouldâ¦ (damn in didn't again)

OR (and even better)

We think weâve put enough due diligence in (justifying it nine ways to Sunday â as we are learned after all) that this trade has just got to work â so we stay in loser longer than we shouldâ¦.

Unfortunately it never really matters why we stay in a loser longer than we should â weâll end up broke just the same â periodâ¦

Then

We (the more learned??) become so gun shy/ so snake bit/ so nervous â that we start exiting our winners quickly â just so we wonât have to deal with the crap a loser bringsâ¦ Very understandableâ¦, and Very sad â imho

In short â we (the more learned??) do all the wrong things â for all the wrong reasons..

Unfortunately this self defeating behavior becomes a self feeding loop â that exacerbates itself â over and over and over - thru our own actionsâ¦

It is at this stage that trading exacts the greatest toll on a personâs psycheâ¦, on a personâs healthâ¦, on a personâs family/ relationshipsâ¦, a personâs accountâ¦. It is also where we are most susceptible to the vultures in this businessâ¦

We will either quit â or push onâ¦.

Assuming we push on, break the cycle and get past the aforementioned phase â then we stand a real good chance of succeedingâ¦

For it is then we can begin to see none of it really matters â and it is also then we can start thinking, acting, and being â a traderâ¦

Regards
RN

RN, excellent post, its good to see there are some real traders in here. You cant fake your post above, you had to live through that.

Hats off to you buddy,

EF

Redneck · Sep 20, 2015

bumping this to see if anyone else would add their experience

RN

redbox · Sep 20, 2015

Redneck said:
fwiw.......

Having a financial planner lose a huge chunk of my retirement motivated me toward trading

I barely knew where Wall Street was, let alone understood what trading was about (btw I still strive to learn everyday â for what I donât know about Wall Street / the financial industry exponentially out shadows what I do)

Starting outâ¦

I attended a couple of formal (at least as formal as it gets I suppose) classes

I read everything about Trading, TA, Indicators, FA,â¦

You name it I probably have the bookâ¦, I know how just about every indicator is supposed to workâ¦, I can read a companyâs balance sheet/ prospectus as easy as a dime novel (note to self btw I need to have a bonfire)

Thinking I knew enough I started trading, and winning â easy peasy â so I thought
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thenâ¦

I began losing â regularly and big

And went thru the next 18 months doubting and questioning âeveryâ thing â most of all me

I reread everythingâ¦ I search and search for helpâ¦ I spent 20 hour days studying (literally) â week after week, month after monthâ¦ trying to get itâ¦.

Out of shear desperation I subscribed to a few stock picking web sites â in hopes one of them would help if only a littleâ¦

I wasnât proud â I would ask for help from whoever would listen that I thought âknewââ¦ I got ignoredâ¦ laughed atâ¦ lied toâ¦ ridiculedâ¦.taken advantage ofâ¦..

And none of it did any good to further my trading, or stop my losingâ¦.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luckily I finally stopped chasing my ass, sat down, internalized, and thought my way thru why I was losing â short answerâ¦.

Because I was not specifically framing up each trade (creating context)â¦, then placing a trade â and either letting a winner run till it stoppedâ¦., or immediately exiting â when the reason for placing that trade (within my context) was invalidated â iow exiting immediately once the trade failed

It took a heck of a lot of internal work just to figure this simple concept out â and even more work to reprogram myself to rigorously follow itâ¦â¦

So time passes and Iâve come full circleâ¦.

Iâve dumped most everything I initially studied..., Iâve simplifiedâ¦, I now have specific contextâ¦, I now trade exactly what I see (well most of the time â because I still sometimes form an opinion â often to my determent)â¦, I now immediately exit when a trade fails (unless I have my useless opinion going)â¦, I now let winners run till they stop runningâ¦.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fwiw and imho â a few noteworthy aspects of tradingâ¦.

Create precise/ specific context â as the market is completely devoid of most contextâ¦ We MUST have context â if we are to succeed in this environmentâ¦

(btw Please do not interpret precise/ specific as âperfectâ â perfect does not exist nor is it necessary)

Always remain opinion-less

Trade what you see â price going up/ not going down â go longâ¦ price going down/ not going up â go shortâ¦ price not going up or down â sit on your handsâ¦ always within your contextâ¦

Stay in a trade as long as you see price going in your favor â exit when it stops â always within your context

Exit immediately when a trade fails â always within your context

Do not change your context while trading â do use multiple timeframes to create and confirm your context

Always remain open â to learning â and to new possibilitiesâ¦

Take control, accept responsibility, be accountableâ¦

Whatever the lesson â it is not yours â till you work to make it yoursâ¦ (do not be fooled/ lulled into thinking otherwise â the market will expose this deficiency in spades)

Pay it forward â the best youâre ableâ¦ (along with many other benefits â it does your heart good)

Keep it real (no matter how bitter â it is always best)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aside

Someone asked in another thread why noobs make moneyâ¦.

Imo itâs because they have a clear mind and trade exactly what they seeâ¦ they exit when a trade fails (likely because theyâre scared to some extent)â¦ and if they are real lucky â they will let a winner run to some extent â at least till they get scared and exitâ¦

In short â They do all the right things â for all the wrong reasonsâ¦..

Oh but then they get some of that good ole experience (and some come up-ins) and progress on to the next stage â whereâ¦

We (the more learned??) keep thinking price can never go there â and fade it (oh how many times have we seen price reverse - damn just not this time though)

We (the more learned??) think price is going to reverse â so we stay in a loser longer than we shouldâ¦ (damn in didn't again)

OR (and even better)

We think weâve put enough due diligence in (justifying it nine ways to Sunday â as we are learned after all) that this trade has just got to work â so we stay in loser longer than we shouldâ¦.

Unfortunately it never really matters why we stay in a loser longer than we should â weâll end up broke just the same â periodâ¦

Then

We (the more learned??) become so gun shy/ so snake bit/ so nervous â that we start exiting our winners quickly â just so we wonât have to deal with the crap a loser bringsâ¦ Very understandableâ¦, and Very sad â imho

In short â we (the more learned??) do all the wrong things â for all the wrong reasons..

Unfortunately this self defeating behavior becomes a self feeding loop â that exacerbates itself â over and over and over - thru our own actionsâ¦

It is at this stage that trading exacts the greatest toll on a personâs psycheâ¦, on a personâs healthâ¦, on a personâs family/ relationshipsâ¦, a personâs accountâ¦. It is also where we are most susceptible to the vultures in this businessâ¦

We will either quit â or push onâ¦.

Assuming we push on, break the cycle and get past the aforementioned phase â then we stand a real good chance of succeedingâ¦

For it is then we can begin to see none of it really matters â and it is also then we can start thinking, acting, and being â a traderâ¦

Regards
RN

Great read RN!

What exactly do you mean by context?

Thank You

Redneck · Sep 20, 2015

redbox said:
Great read RN!

What exactly do you mean by context?

Thank You

Its been reported the Saami people have nearly 1000 words for reindeer..., and nearly 50 for snow

Imagine that

===============

What exactly do I mean by context;

Where price is
How it got there (the behavior it exhibited to get there)
How it is behaving while there

This context is of course not static..., rather a continuously evolving story - which I read like a simple dime novel

RN

pak · Sep 21, 2015

Redneck said:
fwiw.......

Having a financial planner lose a huge chunk of my retirement motivated me toward trading

I barely knew where Wall Street was, let alone understood what trading was about (btw I still strive to learn everyday â for what I donât know about Wall Street / the financial industry exponentially out shadows what I do)

Starting outâ¦

I attended a couple of formal (at least as formal as it gets I suppose) classes

I read everything about Trading, TA, Indicators, FA,â¦

You name it I probably have the bookâ¦, I know how just about every indicator is supposed to workâ¦, I can read a companyâs balance sheet/ prospectus as easy as a dime novel (note to self btw I need to have a bonfire)

Thinking I knew enough I started trading, and winning â easy peasy â so I thought
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thenâ¦

I began losing â regularly and big

And went thru the next 18 months doubting and questioning âeveryâ thing â most of all me

I reread everythingâ¦ I search and search for helpâ¦ I spent 20 hour days studying (literally) â week after week, month after monthâ¦ trying to get itâ¦.

Out of shear desperation I subscribed to a few stock picking web sites â in hopes one of them would help if only a littleâ¦

I wasnât proud â I would ask for help from whoever would listen that I thought âknewââ¦ I got ignoredâ¦ laughed atâ¦ lied toâ¦ ridiculedâ¦.taken advantage ofâ¦..

And none of it did any good to further my trading, or stop my losingâ¦.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luckily I finally stopped chasing my ass, sat down, internalized, and thought my way thru why I was losing â short answerâ¦.

Because I was not specifically framing up each trade (creating context)â¦, then placing a trade â and either letting a winner run till it stoppedâ¦., or immediately exiting â when the reason for placing that trade (within my context) was invalidated â iow exiting immediately once the trade failed

It took a heck of a lot of internal work just to figure this simple concept out â and even more work to reprogram myself to rigorously follow itâ¦â¦

So time passes and Iâve come full circleâ¦.

Iâve dumped most everything I initially studied..., Iâve simplifiedâ¦, I now have specific contextâ¦, I now trade exactly what I see (well most of the time â because I still sometimes form an opinion â often to my determent)â¦, I now immediately exit when a trade fails (unless I have my useless opinion going)â¦, I now let winners run till they stop runningâ¦.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fwiw and imho â a few noteworthy aspects of tradingâ¦.

Create precise/ specific context â as the market is completely devoid of most contextâ¦ We MUST have context â if we are to succeed in this environmentâ¦

(btw Please do not interpret precise/ specific as âperfectâ â perfect does not exist nor is it necessary)

Always remain opinion-less

Trade what you see â price going up/ not going down â go longâ¦ price going down/ not going up â go shortâ¦ price not going up or down â sit on your handsâ¦ always within your contextâ¦

Stay in a trade as long as you see price going in your favor â exit when it stops â always within your context

Exit immediately when a trade fails â always within your context

Do not change your context while trading â do use multiple timeframes to create and confirm your context

Always remain open â to learning â and to new possibilitiesâ¦

Take control, accept responsibility, be accountableâ¦

Whatever the lesson â it is not yours â till you work to make it yoursâ¦ (do not be fooled/ lulled into thinking otherwise â the market will expose this deficiency in spades)

Pay it forward â the best youâre ableâ¦ (along with many other benefits â it does your heart good)

Keep it real (no matter how bitter â it is always best)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aside

Someone asked in another thread why noobs make moneyâ¦.

Imo itâs because they have a clear mind and trade exactly what they seeâ¦ they exit when a trade fails (likely because theyâre scared to some extent)â¦ and if they are real lucky â they will let a winner run to some extent â at least till they get scared and exitâ¦

In short â They do all the right things â for all the wrong reasonsâ¦..

Oh but then they get some of that good ole experience (and some come up-ins) and progress on to the next stage â whereâ¦

We (the more learned??) keep thinking price can never go there â and fade it (oh how many times have we seen price reverse - damn just not this time though)

We (the more learned??) think price is going to reverse â so we stay in a loser longer than we shouldâ¦ (damn in didn't again)

OR (and even better)

We think weâve put enough due diligence in (justifying it nine ways to Sunday â as we are learned after all) that this trade has just got to work â so we stay in loser longer than we shouldâ¦.

Unfortunately it never really matters why we stay in a loser longer than we should â weâll end up broke just the same â periodâ¦

Then

We (the more learned??) become so gun shy/ so snake bit/ so nervous â that we start exiting our winners quickly â just so we wonât have to deal with the crap a loser bringsâ¦ Very understandableâ¦, and Very sad â imho

In short â we (the more learned??) do all the wrong things â for all the wrong reasons..

Unfortunately this self defeating behavior becomes a self feeding loop â that exacerbates itself â over and over and over - thru our own actionsâ¦

It is at this stage that trading exacts the greatest toll on a personâs psycheâ¦, on a personâs healthâ¦, on a personâs family/ relationshipsâ¦, a personâs accountâ¦. It is also where we are most susceptible to the vultures in this businessâ¦

We will either quit â or push onâ¦.

Assuming we push on, break the cycle and get past the aforementioned phase â then we stand a real good chance of succeedingâ¦

For it is then we can begin to see none of it really matters â and it is also then we can start thinking, acting, and being â a traderâ¦

Regards
RN

A true Classic Red...& brilliantly written too!

redbox · Sep 21, 2015

Redneck said:
Its been reported the Saami people have nearly 1000 words for reindeer..., and nearly 50 for snow

Imagine that

===============

What exactly do I mean by context;

Where price is
How it got there (the behavior it exhibited to get there)
How it is behaving while there

This context is of course not static..., rather a continuously evolving story - which I read like a simple dime novel

RN

Great, thank you RN