So you want to be a Stock Trader?

Quote from whitster:

...i have about 22 setups... ...2 of those setups are overnight setups. all the rest are intraday...

...it is totally dependant on market character, as to which i take... ...others i might trade 4 times a day. it just depends on what the market is doing. there are setups for most market environments...

...my targets and stops are predetermined for each setup. they are based on the structure of the setup/and themarket i am trading.

i don't have different styles for time of day, but i do have differnet rules. like, there is one setup that i NEVER use within 1/2 hr of cash market close. why? because it doesn't work nearly as often. i am not "allowed " to use it then...
I'm sure I'll add some more to these subjects later, but for now... Well said. New traders take note, different trading setups for different market conditions is one thing books rarely mention. However, as whitster explained, trading styles that change with market conditions are very integral for many traders. Listen to what the market is telling you and make your trades accordingly.

Quote from andread:

okay, so let's talk about TA and systems. In the longer term fundamentals seem to play a major role, but what about in the shorter term? I mean, obviously after the news is out, given the fundamentals, everything is left to the market, and then the only thing you can do is look at the charts. Still, if you look at a chart you can be much more precise if you know what is going on in the background. The same setup can have different outcomes depending on the situation of the company.
For this reason I would think that indices, futures and forex are probably easier and more effective to trade on a pure technical basis.
How different do you think a pure mechanical system can be, in terms of performance, in these different markets?

P.S. I appreciate you guys answering these questions. I would also like to encourage other people to join.
Thank you
In regards to the first part of the post, yes this is part of what I try to explain when I talk about aligning the different variables. A well stated post andread. As far as purely mechanical rule-based trading goes, I'm probably the last person who should comment on their performance... I've never traded a mechanical, any-idiot-can-do-this, system. In the long-term, I don't think there is one that can consistently outperform discretionary trading. Mechanical systems can often times forget what truly moves prices... the herd's sentiment. Good post.

Quote from jho:

I would like some more discussion on bear markets. I hear some traders say ohhh he made those gains in a bull market, he's no hero ... ok sure I understand but why can one not make good returns in a bear market. Is there a lot less opportunity? Less intra-day volatility? You say bear markets can kill traders, how so?(If he is just as comfortable going short as he is going long) What are the differences between bull and bear markets? What are some big obvious things you noticed and what are some small little details you observed?
I'd prefer to have some others join in on this topic, but I have a few things to add myself... "He's no hero": If a trader made a 70% net in 1999 or even 60% in 2003, one could say that "he's no hero" although I wouldn't... If a trader made (with a sizable account) 40% net in 2004 or 2005, he has some serious credibility though. Take a look at some NASDAQ charts from those years, you'll see what I'm talking about. On the flip, If a professional trader (with the ability to short multiple vessels) lost 40% or more during 00/01 or 2002 then he's a retard (this is arguable because in 01/02 everyone thought it was just a pullback for quite a while, so for arguments sake lets just say during the several month span of the biggest drops in the techs). Nobody is a hero while the trend is their friend, but when you outperform a trend (or perform well without one), that's something to be acknowledged and held in high regards when discussing one's ability.

During a long-term bear, rebounds usually run (up) longer but over shorter periods of time. During long-term bulls, pullbacks usually run (down) longer but over shorter periods of time than the overall bullish trends. (Did that make any sense?)

Typically, most traders aren't as comfortable going short as they are long, and it's easier to get into a trade at the appropriate time when buying than it is selling. Some setups disappear right after you finally get your short position, if you even get into the move at all. The opportunities and setups in bear markets are the same (albeit polar opposites of bulls), but quality entries just aren't as prevalent. Trading in bull markets isn't really any easier than trading in bears, I'd say it's just a LOT more convenient. Another problem is wanting to short something that your broker doesn't offer. If it's an intra-day setup, fuggetabowdit. If it is a swing or investment setup, most brokers will work with you and attain shortable shares from elsewhere, but if you aren't trading with much size, good luck finding quality (and timely) special treatment.

Quote from dnaj65000:

thank you for posting so much good information in one easy to read post.
You're welcome. (ego stroking is fun :p) Feel free to add or ask.

Quote from billp:

Thanks for answering the previous question. Have another one.

You mentioned that traders need to hold onto their position unless it moves against them.
That's the difficult part. How do you determine that if the trade has not hit your stop loss yet? It could be just noise or it could be that one should really get out of one's position. Advise needed. Thanks
For young traders (in my opinion) the best bet is to learn patience. Not just in the length of trade, but patience in stock selection, patience in market timing, patience in exiting trades, heck... patience with the learning process too. Overtrading is a common mistake made by young traders (and sometimes experienced ones too). The markets move very quickly (on good days anyway) but the ability to use good judgement and determine when to not trade is easily as important as what to do with a stock that is stuck in the mud.

To answer your specific question though, if you're holding a stock that is moving only a few pennies and/or see-sawing back and forth, then just get out of it... unless it's only been a few minutes and your expected trade time is hours. (New traders, write down the entry time if you have to, just don't make assumptions about how long you've been in a trade. When you're still green, twelve minute trades feel like hours.) When a position is/was just chopping around, look for something else... Can't find anything? Then don't trade anything. If a stock is approaching a stop loss, and is showing you little reason to stay in for a bounce back, then go ahead and exit. Just remember to exit when you're supposed to exit. Don't keep mental stops, you'll end up watching it blow right by them. Don't jump right back in after taking an exit from a losing position either, especially when it has yet to re-pass your first entry, or if you can't find any other quality setups. Don't overtrade. If you've made several trades outside of your target time-frame, whether you are up or down, then just sit back and watch what's happening and wait for the market to tell you what to do. Sometimes the market just keeps telling me to wait longer, and that's alright. It's okay to trade only a few hours of the day, just make sure that you're trading the good hours and not the bad... And don't use that last statement as an excuse to be lazy or slack off either. If you're not in a trade, do something constructive. Start screening for new positions, or run some laps, or post advice on ET... :)
 
Thanks. What about for swing trade if it has not blown past your stop loss yet? Do you wait for at least 1 whole day? TIA



Quote from 2manywhiners:

To answer your specific question though, if you're holding a stock that is moving only a few pennies and/or see-sawing back and forth, then just get out of it... unless it's only been a few minutes and your expected trade time is hours. (New traders, write down the entry time if you have to, just don't make assumptions about how long you've been in a trade. When you're still green, twelve minute trades feel like hours.) When a position is/was just chopping around, look for something else... Can't find anything? Then don't trade anything. If a stock is approaching a stop loss, and is showing you little reason to stay in for a bounce back, then go ahead and exit. Just remember to exit when you're supposed to exit. Don't keep mental stops, you'll end up watching it blow right by them. Don't jump right back in after taking an exit from a losing position either, especially when it has yet to re-pass your first entry, or if you can't find any other quality setups. Don't overtrade. If you've made several trades outside of your target time-frame, whether you are up or down, then just sit back and watch what's happening and wait for the market to tell you what to do. Sometimes the market just keeps telling me to wait longer, and that's alright. It's okay to trade only a few hours of the day, just make sure that you're trading the good hours and not the bad... And don't use that last statement as an excuse to be lazy or slack off either. If you're not in a trade, do something constructive. Start screening for new positions, or run some laps, or post advice on ET... :)
 
Quote from billp:

Thanks. What about for swing trade if it has not blown past your stop loss yet? Do you wait for at least 1 whole day? TIA
It depends. If you've found a better trade, and the current one is stalling or slowly (steadily) moving against you, then I'd say yes... Just don't forget about PDT rules and what your broker does or doesn't allow for. Also take into account how long your time frame is, and whether or not you'd probably take a loss the next day to move on to a new trade. If you'd likely take on a new trade, then take that into consideration when making your decision... Just don't exit early regularly for the many reasons previously stated...

Keep 'em comin'. Best of luck. :cool:



On an unrelated topic... I don't recommend new or young traders hold short term trades through holidays either...
 
Thanks. One of my biggest problem when holding the stock overnight is tackling the 1st hour of trading the next day. 1st hour is usually more volatile and have a LARGER RANGE where support/resistance are being tested and gaps may occur.

If a stock gaps below/above a prominent support/resistance, I will know how to tackle it. The problem comes when it gaps/not gaps and trades in the middle of 'noise'. The problem is the 'noise' range may be a rather large one. Also, when price keeps going down (for example), it does not necessarily mean that we should exit our long position as it can then turn up again. The 'larger trading range' ie stop loss that we have to allocate to allow for this noise more often than not seems unjustified to me. Do you have any tips on how to handle the 1st hour of trading when you already have a position from yesterday? TIA
 
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1271907#post1271907

Quote from davesaint86:

I was having the same problem. The stress was killing me. I've tried all kinds of systems and strategies. I found a systems I like now. Not get rich quick but it I'm making money now and sleeping well.

www:{spriestocks.com (Free trial with no credit card required)
Nice... 27 posts in 6 hours. Nothing of substance, just a little bit of...


SPAM!!!

SpAm!

sPaM!i!

SPaM!!!

spAM!!!


Bacon? No, it's SPAM!



http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1272238#post1272238

Quote from davesaint86:

Not BS - SpireStocks works. Free 30day trial. No credit card needed. Trialed it in July paper trading. Started real-time on August 3. Gained 11% so far. Not a get quick rich system.
Lesson number... whatever...

Don't jump off of a bridge just because a Spammer tells you to... See my second post in this thread... (somehow, I knew we'd eventually get to this lesson...)

Quote from billp:

Thanks. One of my biggest problem when holding the stock overnight is tackling the 1st hour of trading the next day. 1st hour is usually more volatile and have a LARGER RANGE where support/resistance are being tested and gaps may occur.

If a stock gaps below/above a prominent support/resistance, I will know how to tackle it. The problem comes when it gaps/not gaps and trades in the middle of 'noise'. The problem is the 'noise' range may be a rather large one. Also, when price keeps going down (for example), it does not necessarily mean that we should exit our long position as it can then turn up again. The 'larger trading range' ie stop loss that we have to allocate to allow for this noise more often than not seems unjustified to me. Do you have any tips on how to handle the 1st hour of trading when you already have a position from yesterday? TIA
I don't usually hold positions just for overnights... Most of my overnight trades are several days long, so I tend to wait for a reason to exit when positions chop around inside of my stop and target range... That being said, maybe you should try to add more criteria before entering a trade, or adjust targets or stops... Patience is a virtue, and I'm tired. I'll get back to this one later... sorry. :D
 
PM to undisclosed ETer...

...It's unrelated to the last few posts, I just needed to park it somewhere...

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

HHH.png
 
The Sky is Falling... Futures Going To Get Killed Tonight!!! http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1281520#post1281520

Just because the ET (and other trading websites) consensus for Market Direction is often times decided by the Bulls, don't hesitate to go with your gut and prepare for the market to take a dive. The early bird gets ...Well... check out December 1st and the first four hours of the day... Just don't start listening to the Doomsday crowd regularly without your earplugs in.

Quote from 2manywhiners:

Actually, the sky is falling in half the US... (snow storms) I'm in one right now, and I'm surprised nobody on this thread mentioned the weather factor that everyone is worried about for retailers and the like... CNBC wouldn't shut up about it during OTM... That and the terror/jihad crap... I'm personally going to lay off the first five or ten minutes of the open, then I'll be waiting for the panic stricken stupid money holders (A fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place) to start bailing out of positions... If we do see any significant drops (which I suspect we might) I'll be selling right along with the rest of the herd... Only difference is I'll be covering later, and they'll be kicking themselves...
Quote from 2manywhiners:

Kerkorian dumping all of his GM stock, NYSE's problems with order routing, NYSE volume mystery, terror threats against stock market platforms, British Airways (BAB) contamination problems, Wal-Mart reports a sales decline for the first time in 10 years, winter storms talk and the effect bad weather could have on retail, Dow's been on a 1999-style coke binge for the last few months, buy recommendations popping up all over the place for tech stocks...

...And I've been accused of being an über-Bull before...
Quote from 2manywhiners:

I vote for me... either way...

covered shorts and flat... I'm going to go shovel my driveway... And then burn money to stay warm... :p
 
Posting Live Trades... And Selling Systems http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1284479#post1284479

Quote from 2manywhiners:

Can't sleep, so I figured I'd humor ken and illiquid...

I'm fairly flat short & mid term, I've been taking profits since before Thanksgiving... Tomorrow Intra-day I'll be looking for PFE and possibly XLV shorts, depending on the overall market and sector directions. HHH and its underlying stocks are possible shorts. USO and OIH are long options for intra-day, but I'll probably wait for something else to pop-up on radar. I'm selling off HAL (at some point tomorrow) and adding to positions in DO (I was first in around $40, then started selling in May before my summer vacation, back in it mid-sixties and again at seventy) and GSF (those are long term though)... I trade breakouts at the open (not the big gaps, so quit laughing :D ) so I'll see where the market is going around 10-10:30am when I start opening the longer intra-day positions... If you want to know how I trade, use the search function... I had a thread going in Career Trader there for a while...
12-04-06 10:25 AM EST; Quote from 2manywhiners:

ASCA, TTWO

shorted USO, out...
Quote from 2manywhiners:

I offer up my Ryan Leaf 1998 rookie card, and of course the lint from my left pocket and the old gum wrapper are still on the table... It's obvious that I really need this system, so that I can figure out the secret to trading...

...Because I was buying ASCA @ 31.72, then at 32.67... Out at 33.13/12...

...And TTWO @ 18.56 & 18.57, then at 19.17, then again at 19.44, and yet again at 20.02... Out at 20.09/08, then 20.05...

Now, those trades to you probably just look like the nickels in the Salvation Army donation pots at your local Dollar General (we all know you can't afford to shop at Target on your student male nursing budget :D ) but I made more $$$ today than what you have in your account... Who's calling who fake?
TTWO.png


ASCA.png


Quote from 2manywhiners:

100% in five months is not impossible, just highly improbable for a new trader. I made (net) well over 20% in May. Do you remember what May looked like? Most of that came in a two week span to boot...

...Such a system is readily available (just not easy... LoL), and I give it away FOR FREE to those on ET who open their minds, and not their excessively large mouths...

...No we're not all born with fat accounts. In fact, I was born naked in a manger... Because I am the Son of God! (Why not make outlandish claims, after all you're making 100% and still only have $7k...) Do you really think that somebody just handed me a bunch of money and said "Go forth and Play?" No... I am self made, and still trading retail (technically speaking...)

...$XXX,xxx in 2005 and 2006... And I took the entire summer off from trading this year. I've been at this for a while now, and it is a lot more work than most beginners want to believe. It takes hard work and dedication. Unfortunately, trading as a career tends to lure in people who half-ass things part of the time, and completely slack off the rest of it.

I'm not saying that I know everything there is to know about trading, I don't because I'm still learning everyday, but if you want to get serious about this, trying to sell a system to ETers is not a great way to go about it... I've had my fun here, but its winding down (you can only kick someone so many times before you feel obligated to call an ambulance... :( ) best of luck selling your system...
Selling a good idea is always much easier when it has already become realized, and has achieved some validity through the observation of past trades. Even then, system peddling will be met with skepticism. And rightly so. After all, if he makes so much money... why not just give it away?

Giving away great ideas that have been proven... that is the mark of a man who has a desire to contribute something worthwhile and decent, even if his career contributes nothing significant to humanity. Unfortunately his lack of greed and generous offerings are usually met with at least as much skepticism and as many critics as the Snake Oil peddler. And why should they not? If they're so great, why would he just give them away? :confused:
 
The best advice for a Prospective Trader (hint: Know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away, Know when to run...) http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1329190#post1329190

Quote from 2manywhiners:

I had dinner with a friend of a friend recently, and I spoke to him and his son about what it takes to become a self-employed full-time home-office trader. His son missed the boat on Vet school, and has recently decided to use daddy's money to become a trader. Kid seemed bright, but a bit too naive and warped by mass media, i.e. he said not only Cramer's name a dozen times, but actually referred to Cramerica at one point... His ultimate goal is to start a hedge fund, but for now he's looking for an annual 50% to 75% or more return on Daddy's retirement savings, which is actually a fairly big number (upper 6's, but lower 6's for the first 12mo). When I told them both, after the kid's spiel, that I would give them the best advice anyone could ever give them, they were both fairly heated. "Don't walk away, Run!" I believe were my exact words, I kind of felt like an asshole. I remember when I first got into this career and how everyone was giving me the expert advice of "Don't walk away, Run!" whether they were actually an expert or not, and I remember the "I'll show them" mentality I had at the time. I almost felt bad, but then I recalled how everyone else actually was right, and how hard it was to admit defeat, as well as how long it took me to really start to figure things out. I took the hard path, and thus far I've surpassed even the most surreal expectations of even myself. I thought about that shit long and hard, how much shit I had to crawl through before I came out the other side still smelling like dung... I did at one point almost feel bad, but all I had to do was remind myself of the realities of trading and the failure rate for ventures like theirs, and that was all I needed to relieve my conscience.
Quote from 2manywhiners:

I spent the majority of dinner trying to ask questions that should have had an easy or fairly straight forward answer, but I was getting responses that were often unrelated to the questions I posed (I made the assumption that the answers were unknown, hence the rambling about something unrelated or already discussed). That and the growing attitudes led me to my decision to tell them exactly what I thought... Right, wrong, or indifferent. I still think I did the right thing.
 
Back
Top