Man has two more chances before $232 million is lost forever

[johnarb]

Its value is derived by the belief that one can use it to trade…. Just like a fiat currency.

You have too many convos going at the same time, but the "it" we were discussing was the Bitcoin mining network hashrate, which is a part of the audit process of the Bitcoin blockchain by ensuring that all mempool transactions to be included in the block contain valid bitcoin utxo's i.e. no "fake" bitcoins or double-spend

[Mr. D. Kruger has entered the chat]

Look, I hate to be insulting but how is it that someone with your intelligence level capable of performing complex mathematical options modeling stuff (I cannot) and able to break down corporate financial statements (I cannot) and have access to crypto industry insiders and yet you fail to grasp how Bitcoin's value is derived?

Bitcoin's value is greater than the sum of all its parts = fraud-free, 24/7 operations, never goes down Bitcoin monetary network (payment systems on MoE transactions, value transfer without intermediaries across borders) that has settled over $8 T last year + bitcoin the scarce digital asset secured by the most powerful computing network that ever existed and still increasing in power + the network of all the global users/companies willing to trade their hard earned savings for it

You don't have to take my word for it. Every single minute, the value of bitcoin is agreed upon in many many places all around the world, perhaps right now as I type this, a vendor in a Turkish market place has exchanged some local delicacies for some satoshis, or maybe someone in Lugano successfully paid for a haircut with satoshis, or maybe a person in small island called Boracay paid for his hotel stay with some satoshis

bitcoin is a scarce commodity digital asset that like any commodity, gold, silver, copper, are traded in global market places, and subject to supply and demand dynamics, for example in Nigeria and other places, the price of bitcoin is much higher equivalent in US $

 

[newwurldmn]

Bitcoin’s value is only in its usage for transactions. All the tech allows it to be used for transactions - but don’t create value by itself.

The goal of a currency is to grease bartering to improve quality of life for everyone. (Eg: you don’t have to trade wheel axles for grain, you can trade wheel axles to someone for money and then trade the money for grain)

I posit that bitcoin will not be a global currency because a fix amount of currency leads to other economic problems. An uncontrollable growth in currency leads to other problems. No government will allow bitcoin to run as rampant as it does because controlling a currency allows for smoother bartering over time. America has prospered because inflation has been stable for decades. We all can plan our retirements better and our spending. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but no system works all the time. But this one works better than the ones before it.

Secondly crypto won’t survive if these frauds are not resolved. “Not your keys, not your coins” doesn’t work. There will inherently be centralization and control. Otherwise the tech won’t work as a global payment system.

As a global payment system I can see it killing wire transfers and other things but I see it as a backbone technology than something more disruptive.

I will admit I am not a visionary so I
might be missing something that you see. But I have studied historical finance and I’ve seen stories that rhyme. Finance can’t be the Wild West and mainstream at the same time. It will never adopt. (Since you are a computer guy: it’s why Linux never took off except for some nichey applications).

finally no one has explained why a currency should become more valuable because it’s usage goes up. Bitcoin I can get because of its fixed amount but that does not make for a good currency. No one can explain why ethereum should go up as more
Use it for transactions.

If you believe in crypto I think you should be investing in the backbone technologies. But for us, that’s hard to do.

You have too many convos going at the same time, but the "it" we were discussing was the Bitcoin mining network hashrate, which is a part of the audit process of the Bitcoin blockchain by ensuring that all mempool transactions to be included in the block contain valid bitcoin utxo's i.e. no "fake" bitcoins or double-spend

[Mr. D. Kruger has entered the chat]

Look, I hate to be insulting but how is it that someone with your intelligence level capable of performing complex mathematical options modeling stuff (I cannot) and able to break down corporate financial statements (I cannot) and have access to crypto industry insiders and yet you fail to grasp how Bitcoin's value is derived?

Bitcoin's value is greater than the sum of all its parts = fraud-free, 24/7 operations, never goes down Bitcoin monetary network (payment systems on MoE transactions, value transfer without intermediaries across borders) that has settled over $8 T last year + bitcoin the scarce digital asset secured by the most powerful computing network that ever existed and still increasing in power + the network of all the global users/companies willing to trade their hard earned savings for it

You don't have to take my word for it. Every single minute, the value of bitcoin is agreed upon in many many places all around the world, perhaps right now as I type this, a vendor in a Turkish market place has exchanged some local delicacies for some satoshis, or maybe someone in Lugano successfully paid for a haircut with satoshis, or maybe a person in small island called Boracay paid for his hotel stay with some satoshis

bitcoin is a scarce commodity digital asset that like any commodity, gold, silver, copper, are traded in global market places, and subject to supply and demand dynamics, for example in Nigeria and other places, the price of bitcoin is much higher equivalent in US $

 

[The_Krakenite]

That isn’t worth anything. There’s no intrinsic value to any of that.

Interesting, I was always taught that's how the US dollar works ever since 1971 when the US defaulted on its gold obligations.

Or is it a co-incidence the working class has been getting crushed bit by bit ever since?

 

[newwurldmn]

Interesting, I was always taught that's how the US dollar works ever since 1971 when the US defaulted on its gold obligations.

Or is it a co-incidence the working class has been getting crushed bit by bit ever since?

Exactly. Bitcoin is as much fiat currency as anything else. Except it’s unstable from an economic point of view.

Coincidence. Working class crushed because Europe and japan came online after 20 years of recovering from Ww2. Then the rest of Asia and China.

 

[deaddog]

Interesting, I was always taught that's how the US dollar works ever since 1971 when the US defaulted on its gold obligations.

Or is it a co-incidence the working class has been getting crushed bit by bit ever since?

Exactly how has the working class been crushed. I would say that the working class is better off today than they were in 1971.

 

[johnarb]

Bitcoin’s value is only in its usage for transactions. All the tech allows it to be used for transactions - but don’t create value by itself.

The goal of a currency is to grease bartering to improve quality of life for everyone. (Eg: you don’t have to trade wheel axles for grain, you can trade wheel axles to someone for money and then trade the money for grain)

I posit that bitcoin will not be a global currency because a fix amount of currency leads to other economic problems. An uncontrollable growth in currency leads to other problems. No government will allow bitcoin to run as rampant as it does because controlling a currency allows for smoother bartering over time. America has prospered because inflation has been stable for decades. We all can plan our retirements better and our spending. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but no system works all the time. But this one works better than the ones before it.

Secondly crypto won’t survive if these frauds are not resolved. “Not your keys, not your coins” doesn’t work. There will inherently be centralization and control. Otherwise the tech won’t work as a global payment system.

As a global payment system I can see it killing wire transfers and other things but I see it as a backbone technology than something more disruptive.

I will admit I am not a visionary so I
might be missing something that you see. But I have studied historical finance and I’ve seen stories that rhyme. Finance can’t be the Wild West and mainstream at the same time. It will never adopt. (Since you are a computer guy: it’s why Linux never took off except for some nichey applications).

finally no one has explained why a currency should become more valuable because it’s usage goes up. Bitcoin I can get because of its fixed amount but that does not make for a good currency. No one can explain why ethereum should go up as more
Use it for transactions.

If you believe in crypto I think you should be investing in the backbone technologies. But for us, that’s hard to do.

I respect your viewpoints and agree to disagree

A couple of things, I agree with you that Bitcoin will never be a global reserve currency as world governments will not allow that, but Bitcoin can be a global reserve asset, like gold or silver

Bitcoin is base money, like gold or silver, a SoV, a unit of account, and a medium of exchange, which can be used as currency or method of payment

Unlike fiat currencies like US $ or Euro, owning bitcoin, gold and silver have no liabilities, while US $ is a liability of the Fed like all fiat currencies, they are debt-based monetary system

This is why not your keys, not your coins is important in the sense that just like gold, physical ownership means if the US $ crashes in value, let's say because of a debt default, you can simply move to another country with your wealth in bitcoins or physical gold

and the other thing is that if the value of Bitcoin is simply on its ability to be used for trading and other simple measures, then why is Bitcoin Cash $bch which has exactly the same properties as Bitcoin $btc is valued 95% less

 

[The_Krakenite]

Exactly how has the working class been crushed. I would say that the working class is better off today than they were in 1971.

We have already mentioned the basics in the threads here, so I am not sure if you're getting forgetful in your age, but here are some basics:

Before the 70s, it only took 1-working month for the average worker to purchase (in full) a car. This is precisely why every family had at least two cars. Cars were cheap!

It took the working class only 2-years to purchase a house. Imagine that?

The housing bubble as we know it today was never like this (unless you narrow your viewpoint to the housing-crises fiasco in 2007).

Each year that goes by, the Fed steals even MORE of your purchasing power through taxation without representation... I'll let you read up on Milton to figure it out.

As the US dollar continues to be manipulated and devalued by politicians buying votes and the unrestrained printing... the working class continues to sink farther and farther behind as the dollar just erodes to zero. Eventually, you won't be able to afford a single thing (but the government will tell you to be happy).

 

[deaddog]

We have already mentioned the basics in the threads here, so I am not sure if you're getting forgetful in your age, but here are some basics:

Before the 70s, it only took 1-working month for the average worker to purchase (in full) a car. This is precisely why every family had at least two cars. Cars were cheap!

It took the working class only 2-years to purchase a house. Imagine that?

The housing bubble as we know it today was never like this (unless you narrow your viewpoint to the housing-crises fiasco in 2007).

If you take the basics that you need to survive I think you are better off now.
I can still buy 4 gallons of gas for an hours worth of labor.
Back in 1970 I could buy 6 beer for 1 hrs labor now I can get 15.
Smokes are about the same and a burger is much cheaper today.
As for cars, a new car in 1970 was about $3500 and there wasn't power anything or air conditioning; none of todays safety feature. You can buy a new shitbox for under 20 grand.
And you are better off safety wise because of government regulations.
Housing I'll give you is more expensive.
The only reason you think you are worse off is because the system wants you to be a consumer and panders to your need to spend money you don't have; to buy stuff you don't need, to impress people you don't like. (Gotta keep up appearances)

 

[easymon1]

settled over $8 T last year + bitcoin the scarce digital asset

a Limited number dispensed at a declinining rate.