how do you know the size is still legit

[StreamlineTrade]

Id be watching for the sweeps. Thats when it gets fun!

I trade futures, but obviously you can do it in stocks too with the right platform.

The devil is in the detail - yes, but the money is on the sudden grabs...someones in a hurry...

 

[FastandFurious]

Quote from Bitstream:

what u find weird, that there's 1 lot on the bid? thats typical if there are plenty of sellers in line. sometimes tho is just there to freak u out.

yeah, that's what I thought, you mean sellers or traders who want to get short? I first thought maybe he is just too busy matching orders in a good bearish situation like this. As long as the size is aggressively stepping down in the openbook, it is legit no? seconds later, the size at the price level of the openbook would reflect what is shown on the ecn.

btw, what would show that the specialist will print the whole offer at once (without relatively matching size bids come in the openbook)? And I mean at once, not nibbling 2000 or 5000 at a time or so. Sometimes I observed that he would show a "1" at the price level of the size offer on Level II, and the next second, the whole size gets printed in one shot without any bids come on or anything...

 

[FastandFurious]

Quote from StreamlineTrade:

Id be watching for the sweeps. Thats when it gets fun!

I trade futures, but obviously you can do it in stocks too with the right platform.

The devil is in the detail - yes, but the money is on the sudden grabs...someones in a hurry...

can you elaborate on "sweeps",

 

[Steve Tvardek]

The "key" is to know, after watching the stock trade for a bit, that there is a more powerful seller than buyer and that the seller has more to reload even if they lift the offer in one shot (the offer that steps down). Off the open, its more tricky of course b/c you have no info to give you an indication if the seller will reload or if thats all he's got. You have to be more cautious off the open. A late in the day selloff in a weak stock is much easier to hold when they lift offers because its most likely to conitnue lower (even if they squeeze it a bit and generally if the market is neutral to weak).

I really dont know what else I can say. For me, it just boils down to experience and intuition in those situations. I had to take my licks for a bit until I learned what situations where dangerous and which arent really. But generally speaking, when it comes to lifting offers, if someone keeps taking it in one shot consistently I'm less inclined to hold my shortsbut if its just daytraders trying to lift the offer and I still think the thing is weak, I'm not as worried about staying short.

Quote from FastandFurious:

well steve, in what situations would the specialist likely to print the size all at once? I noticed that when he shows "1" on the offer in level II, but the size on the offer is stagnant, but clearly has more than 1, the next print would be the whole size dumped.

 

[FastandFurious]

Quote from Steve Tvardek:

The "key" is to know, after watching the stock trade for a bit, that there is a more powerful seller than buyer and that the seller has more to reload even if they lift the offer in one shot (the offer that steps down). Off the open, its more tricky of course b/c you have no info to give you an indication if the seller will reload or if thats all he's got. You have to be more cautious off the open. A late in the day selloff in a weak stock is much easier to hold when they lift offers because its most likely to conitnue lower (even if they squeeze it a bit and generally if the market is neutral to weak).

I really dont know what else I can say. For me, it just boils down to experience and intuition in those situations. I had to take my licks for a bit until I learned what situations where dangerous and which arent really. But generally speaking, when it comes to lifting offers, if someone keeps taking it in one shot consistently I'm less inclined to hold my shortsbut if its just daytraders trying to lift the offer and I still think the thing is weak, I'm not as worried about staying short.

right, I noticed that sometimes the size offer would get nibbled 2000, 5000, 7500 at a time until it's gone but I'm talking about when the whole thing gets printed in one shot, very clean, one shot, would the specialist show a "1" on the offer at that price level? I observed that there was a 1 on Level II New York at that sized offer, and the next thing I know, it was printed in one shot.

The earlier part about it is that the size in the openbook keep stepping down, but he shows a 1 on the bid in level II and the new york quote is not "up to date" with the openbook but rather stagnant, then seconds later, the new york quote on level II would reflect what it was shown in the openbook

my question is: the size is still stepping down in the openbook, eventhough the new york spread on level II is stagnant, can that size be trusted or lifted in one print as it is within the spread. I understand that if the size is aggressively stepping down but not in the spread on level II, then the size is fine since the specialist cannot print outside his own spread. is the one on the bid just taking a couple of seconds out to fill orders for traders?

What does it mean to have a 1 on the bid when the size is on the offer side and vice versa? and what's the difference of having 1 x1? I assume that the 1 on the bid locks the bid side of the book, but you can still short/sell and vice versa? and the 1 x 1 locks the whole book

 

[Bitstream]

Quote from FastandFurious:

yeah, that's what I thought, you mean sellers or traders who want to get short? I first thought maybe he is just too busy matching orders in a good bearish situation like this. As long as the size is aggressively stepping down in the openbook, it is legit no? seconds later, the size at the price level of the openbook would reflect what is shown on the ecn.

btw, what would show that the specialist will print the whole offer at once (without relatively matching size bids come in the openbook)? And I mean at once, not nibbling 2000 or 5000 at a time or so. Sometimes I observed that he would show a "1" at the price level of the size offer on Level II, and the next second, the whole size gets printed in one shot without any bids come on or anything...

am talkin' about shorts and/or liquidation.

well yeah 80% of the time that 1lot bid is a tell tale, [also on ecns] that the stock is goin' down, prob is that it could be a temprorary move or a scare print to freak out buyers instead of prinitin' a large offer for example.

only shit i know is that he should spread the stock before makin' that large odd lots print; am not aware of any other patterns for incomin' big prints.

 

[Steve Tvardek]

either someone on the floor tells the spec he wants to buy it all or one or several buy market orders come in that satisfy the seller and the spec groups them together and prints them all at one price.

the open book is slightly delayed and the spec is most likely either going to print the bid or spread it down and print the bids lower. since its not a fully electronic exchange just yet, there are little pockets of slowness updating quotes or matching orders etc

Quote from FastandFurious:

right, I noticed that sometimes the size offer would get nibbled 2000, 5000, 7500 at a time until it's gone but I'm talking about when the whole thing gets printed in one shot, very clean, one shot, would the specialist show a "1" on the offer at that price level? I observed that there was a 1 on Level II New York at that sized offer, and the next thing I know, it was printed in one shot.

The earlier part about it is that the size in the openbook keep stepping down, but he shows a 1 on the bid in level II and the new york quote is not "up to date" with the openbook but rather stagnant, then seconds later, the new york quote on level II would reflect what it was shown in the openbook

 

[luckybastard]

Quote from Steve Tvardek:

either someone on the floor tells the spec he wants to buy it all

If someone from the floor tells the spec to buy 100k at a certain limit, would it appear in the open book or would the spec show this order as '1' on the l2 ? (or are both possible ?)

 

[FastandFurious]

steve, bit, thanks for the inputs, let me "summarize" and group my thoughts so far. Please feel free to comment.

What Happened This morning WB was downgraded, and I clearly see some institutional size right at the closing price. The market opens, all hell breaks loose lol, and the size prints some off, gaps down, and starts to step down penny by penny.

what I felt weird I see the size in the openbook and on the Level II, i see that the new york spread is not congruent to what was shown in the openbook. I saw a "1" on the bid, and some size at the offer that was not the same as what was shown in the openbook. If I remember correctly, the size in the openbook was still stepping down but outside of the spread that was shown on level II. Seconds later, the level II new york quote reflects the openbook and the level II offer was the size in the openbook offer.

some characteristics
-no sizable bids came in at that time
-the new york quote on level II was stagnant until it was matched with the quote on the openbook seconds later
-the ecn prices were ahead of the new york going downward

...maybe it's just a refresh problem?

the important thing here is that
1. the size is stepping down on the openbook, which shows aggressiveness and thus it's not stagnant, which will not likely to get printed. No bids came either at that time.
2. in order for that size to be printed, it has to be in the spread on level II, which if I remember correctly- was not.

So i guess the size is legit and maybe it's just a refresh or specialist is filling orders for traders who wants to get short?

In what situation similar to this would the size not be legit?

 

[FastandFurious]

Quote from luckybastard:

If someone from the floor tells the spec to buy 100k at a certain limit, would it appear in the open book or would the spec show this order as '1' on the l2 ? (or are both possible ?)

i'd like to know as well

What does it mean to have a 1 on the bid when the size is on the offer side and vice versa?

and what's the difference of having 1 x1 (on both sides instead of just on the bid or just on the offer alone)

I assume that the 1 on the bid locks the bid side of the book, but you can still short/sell and vice versa? and the 1 x 1 locks the whole book

if the size was on the offer, i'd assume he'd lock the offer and put a 1 on the offer, but instead he puts a 1 on the bid...and vice versa.

can anyone explain all this?