Government and Religion cannot be separated

[unretired]

Quote from TraderTactics:

They should remain "separated" or there should always be restrictions between them. Why? Because when Religion and Government join forces, they prostitute each other. When church and state combine religious tyranny rules. If we are to review the history of the Roman Catholic Church, it shows clearly how criminal activity destroys freedom when a church controls the government.

I totally see your point and agree with the dangers.
Heck ... that is why we settled the New World ... to get away from King George and His sick Government and Religious oppression.

However ... I see great balance as doable ... our country started with these very debates and concerns ... hence the drafting of our constitution.

These were great and intelligent men ... they knew more than us of this very debate ... with the same concerns voiced here ... so they drafted what worked ... there was balance.

I still hold hope for some return of that balance ... hopefully without too much infighting, violence or turmoil.

However until the American people get uncomfortable ... they will not act with moral certitude on their civil responsibilities to bring Governing order.

 

[peilthetraveler]

Quote from rcaldwell:

Which church will be in charge?

Personally, I don't want someone else's denomination making the rules and telling me how to live.

Someone is always going to make rules telling you how to live. Right NOW the government makes rules and tells you how to live.

Example: They tell you how fast you can drive, they tell you to give them 35% of your income (at least the church its only 10%) They tell you what foods you can eat and what you can drink (oh they may not tell you directly but they sure tell the companies that produce food what they can and can not put out there. They tell you what drugs you allowed to take and what ones you cant take and what ones they will let you take with permission(prescription) They tell some people what days they have to take off from work(government holidays) They also tell you if you can come to this country and they tell you if you can leave (by issuing passports)

The Church has 10 laws. The US government has over 1 million laws. Now...if the government had 10 laws and the church had 1 million laws, I might be able to understand your balking...but hey...its only 10 laws!

 

[peilthetraveler]

Quote from stu:

There is something rather schizophrenically wrong with any argument, but especially a raging Christian Evangelical one , that says the philosophy which identifies people's duty to promote human welfare (Humanism) is a "religion of death".

When communism failed in Russia, communists said it failed because it wasn't proper communism .
Now it's religionists saying the same thing . It's not proper religion. The more religion fails , the more it isn't any fault of religion.

The Founders wanted to keep religion away from government for good reason.
If the balance is wrong , it 's that there is too much religion. Oppressive, authoritarian, controlling, can never be wrong, extreme right wing religion. Constantly screaming for more of itself as it fails all the more.

Thats not true...they didnt want to keep religion away from government, they wanted to keep government away from religion.

And isnt it funny that the more power the atheists and non-Christians (or non-practicing) get a hold of government power, the more they change the rules and then when the whole system falls apart because of their rule changing they say "Look! It was because we did things the 'Christian' way and it doesnt work"

Then the Christians go off by themselves and start a new community and all the atheists say "look how rich they are...lets go there and enjoy some of their wealth" Then they gather in number again, start their rule changing and then it falls apart again and again they say "look, christianity doesnt work. It has to be separate from state"

 

[Index piker]

Quote from stu:

1)The more religion fails , the more it isn't any fault of religion.


If the balance is wrong , it 's that there is too much religion.

2)Oppressive, authoritarian, controlling, can never be wrong, extreme right wing religion. Constantly screaming for more of itself as it fails all the more.

1) You mean like the collectivist authoritarian regimes of socialism/communism?


2) Where in the hell do you see this happening?

 

[CaptainObvious]

Quote from stu:

There are still people who believe in a particular imaginary power greater than themselves ...The power they believe in thankfully doesn't govern the country .

I'm curious Stu, how do people like yourself square the fact that your chosen hero Obama is such a religious man. I mean, he spent 20 years listening to the fire and brimstone of Rev. Wright. Brother Clinton was a thumper too, as was Jimmy Carter. Must be a hard pill to swallow? Not meant as a insult question, I really am curious how you atheists feel about it.

 

[stu]

Quote from CaptainObvious:

I'm curious Stu, how do people like yourself square the fact that your chosen hero Obama is such a religious man. I mean, he spent 20 years listening to the fire and brimstone of Rev. Wright. Brother Clinton was a thumper too, as was Jimmy Carter. Must be a hard pill to swallow? Not meant as a insult question, I really am curious how you atheists feel about it.

What on earth leads you to think from what I said that, because there are people who believe in a particular imaginary power greater than themselves, Obama is ever a chosen hero of mine?

Nonetheless I do think the President expressed a far more inclusive and therefore American message, when he mentioned those of no faith in his inaugural speech.
That damped down somewhat, but hardly enough in my view, the very dangerous threat presented to everyone by incorporating any religion let alone a hierarchical authoritarian one into government.
Religion / no religion is a personal choice and not something government has any business in.


btw as a note in response to your post , I've been told by theists, that if you have no belief you're not one of those "you atheists". However as yet they don't know what the label is but like so many belligerent believers, could only manage so far to offer profanity.

 

[BernardRichards]

Quote from unretired:

God doesn't do religious schisms. So He has no need of mans religion or the support thereof.
His Government works by love and free choice.

I agree -- whatever that means.