Many thanks riskarb... I learn a ton from you... trading and otherwise.
PTR
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Best way to get rid of my handles
- Thread starter gunslinger
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Many thanks riskarb... I learn a ton from you... trading and otherwise.
PTR
Quote from riskarb:
Whey protein is so quickly digested that uptake to lean muscle and repair takes a backseat to replenishing liver glycogen. I would recommend a slower digesting protein, such as pure egg white.
riskarb, just a quick question. I've been going on the assumption that whey protein is okay for your post workout shake. Would you agree? Or do you think that, as a supplement, protein from egg white should be used exclusively?
PTR -- YW, and I've learned from you as well [FF]. Geronova's Mito Gold is a great supplement and contains the RLA/RDHLA and Tocotrienols. Product availability is poor, so I usually buy the 3-pack.
Nik -- I had added the PWO whey, don't know why I deleted that. For simplicity, it's easier to use the EW, but whey is perfect for PWO. I would reserve the whey for post-workout only.
Nik -- I had added the PWO whey, don't know why I deleted that. For simplicity, it's easier to use the EW, but whey is perfect for PWO. I would reserve the whey for post-workout only.
I don't understand what you mean by this. What happens to protein when it is digested? And where does it go? Does the speed of digestion affect where it ends up?Quote from riskarb:
Whey protein is so quickly digested that uptake to lean muscle and repair takes a backseat to replenishing liver glycogen. I would recommend a slower digesting protein, such as pure egg white.
Quote from DannoXYZ:
I don't understand what you mean by this. What happens to protein when it is digested? And where does it go? Does the speed of digestion affect where it ends up?
Of course it does. Protein can be used for energy, simply not as readily as carbohydrates. How quickly it's digested is critical to utilization. Ingesting hydrolyzed whey protein is like eating a candy bar.
Yeah, your body prefers glucose (carbs) first for energy. But isn't the substrate-utilization of your body primarily dependent upon muscle- and liver-glycogen supply? If you're fully stocked up with glycogen then ingested protein won't be converted to glucose for energy, like at the beginning of a workout. But if you're 4-hours into a 100-mile bike-ride, pretty much anything you eat will end up being used for energy because you're low on blood-glucose; even some good muscle-protein already on your body will be converted to glucose for energy in this case due to elevated levels of glucagon & cortisol. Guys like Lance Armstrong that does a lot of aerobic workouts need 5000-6000 calories of food a day and they need to go to the gym to rebuild the muscles that have been burned up for energy (just to maintain steady bodyweight).Quote from riskarb:
Of course it does. Protein can be used for energy, simply not as readily as carbohydrates. How quickly it's digested is critical to utilization. Ingesting hydrolyzed whey protein is like eating a candy bar.
After a workout, adequate nutrition will help recovery. For about 30-60 minutes afterwards, insulin isn't needed to pump glucose into the muscles to replenish glycogen stores (muscles store 1800-2000 calories of glycogen, liver about 200-300). A 3:1 to 4:1 carb-to-protein mix appears to be the fastest mix. The glucose to replenish glycogen and prevent muscle-catabolism and the protein for muscle-repair.
I think protein utilization varies tremendously depending upon changing concentrations of a lot of other factors, other than just the type of protein you eat. EAA and NEAAs are the same stuff once it's in your bloodstream, doesn't matter as much where it came from. I think we have to break up the protein pathway into at least two steps: digestion and utilization. The types of protein eaten does affect the rate of digestion and how quickly it gets into your bloodstream. But once it's there, how that protein is used depends upon whether your body is in a fully-stocked condition or whether it's in a depleted/recovery state or somewhere in between.
Here's some good articles I found from Google:
TeenBodybuilding - Anabolic Ammunition Arsenal
ABCbodybuilding - Nutrient use during Low, Moderate, and High Intensity Exercise
ABCbodybuilding - Window of Opportunity (PWO nutrition)
TeenBodybuilding - All About Protein And Different Sources!
Yeah, your body prefers glucose (carbs) first for energy. But isn't the energy-utilization of your body primarily dependent upon muscle- and liver-glycogen supply? If you're fully stocked up with glycogen then ingested protein won't be converted to glucose for energy, like at the beginning of a workout. But if you're 4-hours into a 100-mile bike-ride, pretty much anything you eat will end up being used for energy because you're low on blood-glucose; even some good muscle-protein will be converted to glucose for energy in this case due to elevated levels of glucagon & cortisol.
Basically correct. Broken peptides allow for greater utility; which is good and bad. Adipose storage is unaviodable. Hence my candy bar analogy.
After a workout, adequate nutrition will help recovery. For about 30-60 minutes, insulin isn't needed to pump glucose into the muscles to replenish glycogen stores (muscles store 1800-2000 calories of glycogen, liver about 200-300). A 3:1 carb-to-protein mix appears to be the fastest mix. The glucose to replenish glycogen and the protein for muscle-repair.
It's absolutely hierachical, but not as defined as you imply. The 3:1 ratio is absolute bullsh*t for recovery. Do you believe that NO-mediated vasodilation somehow inhibits the release of insulin? Carbs now have zero influence? Your "adequate nutrition" statement is absurdly vague. Gee... Let's compare the mass of a liver to that of skeletal muscle. C'mon.
I think protein utilization varies tremendously depending upon changing concentrations of a lot of other factors, other than just the type of protein you eat. EAA and NEAAs are the same stuff once it's in your bloodstream, doesn't matter where it came from.
Once they're in the bloodstream. I am referring to glycogen stores and replenishment. We would all be eating 50g of branched-chain aminos if rate and utility were not major factors. Same goes for hydrolyzed proteins. Charlebois is a nice kid, but he's out of his depth.
Basically correct. Broken peptides allow for greater utility; which is good and bad. Adipose storage is unaviodable. Hence my candy bar analogy.
After a workout, adequate nutrition will help recovery. For about 30-60 minutes, insulin isn't needed to pump glucose into the muscles to replenish glycogen stores (muscles store 1800-2000 calories of glycogen, liver about 200-300). A 3:1 carb-to-protein mix appears to be the fastest mix. The glucose to replenish glycogen and the protein for muscle-repair.
It's absolutely hierachical, but not as defined as you imply. The 3:1 ratio is absolute bullsh*t for recovery. Do you believe that NO-mediated vasodilation somehow inhibits the release of insulin? Carbs now have zero influence? Your "adequate nutrition" statement is absurdly vague. Gee... Let's compare the mass of a liver to that of skeletal muscle. C'mon.
I think protein utilization varies tremendously depending upon changing concentrations of a lot of other factors, other than just the type of protein you eat. EAA and NEAAs are the same stuff once it's in your bloodstream, doesn't matter where it came from.
Once they're in the bloodstream. I am referring to glycogen stores and replenishment. We would all be eating 50g of branched-chain aminos if rate and utility were not major factors. Same goes for hydrolyzed proteins. Charlebois is a nice kid, but he's out of his depth.
Exactly, excess carbs/proteins that's floating around after your glycogen stores are fully replenished will end up as fat, no way around it.Quote from riskarb:
Basically correct. Broken peptides allow for greater utility; which is good and bad. Adipose storage is unaviodable. Hence my candy bar analogy.
I'm not sure what you mean by comparing mass of muscles to liver? All I was pointing out was that the muscles store a lot more glycogen than the liver. And this supply is used first because it's already right there in the muscles. When that supply starts to dwindle with exercise, more glucose is sucked in from the bloodstream and the liver also dumps its supply of glycogen into the bloodstream to supplement the dropping supply. That's why eating carbs & drinking electrolytes are important on long workouts to prevent glycogen & blood-glucose levels dropping to low levels such that muscles are catabolised for energy.Quote from riskarb:
It's absolutely hierachical, but not as defined as you imply. The 3:1 ratio is absolute bullsh*t for recovery. Do you believe that NO-mediated vasodilation somehow inhibits the release of insulin? Carbs now have zero influence? Your "adequate nutrition" statement is absurdly vague. Gee... Let's compare the mass of a liver to that of skeletal muscle. C'mon.
And nowhere did I say that carbs make no different or in relation to insulin levels. All I was saying is that immediately after a workout, your muscle-cells will soak up glucose & proteins at a very fast rate and it's not dependent upon insulin like other times. That's why diabetics have had good success with exercise; they're able pump glucose out of the bloodstream into the muscles and burn it up without needing insulin. Many report reducing basal supplementation by 50% during exercise.
Here's some more interesting articles. Note that they used %VO2-max whereas I use I like to use %MHR as that's easier for most people to measure:
Journal of Applied Physiology articles
Determinants of fat oxidation during exercise in healthy men and women
Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on metabolism during running and cycling
Exogenous glucose oxidation during exercise in endurance-trained and untrained subjects (basically says trained athletes burns higher fat%).
Effects of carbohydrate supplementation on performance and carbohydrate oxidation after intensified cycling training (high-carb reduces effects of overtraining)
High-fat hypocaloric diet modifies carbohydrate utilization of obese rats during weight loss (high-fat diet results in less weight-loss compared to low-fat)
Exercise increases fat oxidation at rest unrelated to changes in energy balance or lipolysis
Dietary carbohydrate, muscle glycogen, and power output during rowing training
various other articles on recovery:
Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement
Effect of carbohydrate supplementation on postexercise GLUT-4 protein expression in skeletal muscle
VeloNews - Real food and recovery