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Shoe: >Yes, hell and fire are tied together. If that's >what you call a "description" then fine. To me >that's not a description. Yeah, just like: "snow covered peak" is not a description of a mountain. "sugar frosted donut" is not a description of a pastry. "puffy clouds" is not...

It's amusing that you mock me in this situation when the "there must be three for major doctrine" is not my position, but Shoes. JB

So which is it... Do you not argue with those four passages because they are "weak to my position", or because they "apply to both positions"? You say: >I didn't spend any time on the last four because >they are simply so weak to your position. >All those verses do is simply put the...

>Hell in this case would be a 'punishment' in the >sense that eternal life would be preferable to >eternal death and it would also be a fulfillment >of the materialist's expecations; You are right Spec ONLY if Shoe believes that hell is NOT a place of fiery/torturous punishment. If it...

>I didn't spend any time on the last four because >they are simply so weak to your position. That is only because you CONTINUE to misrepresent my position (see below). >All those verses do is simply put the word "hell" >and "fire" together in the same verse. Yes, and that is...

Shoe, you are SOOOO full of double speak. If you believe that hell is a place of ugly punishment, why would you even *entertain* the following scenario where you attempt to convince the materialists that hell could be just a benign place where their lives are just "taken away" and they are...

Shoe: >But, second of all, and more importantly, you cannot >build a doctrine upon this imo for many reasons: >1. It's only one passage. Uhh... you keep saying that but it doesn't make it true. I actually posted FIVE passages which all refer to the same fiery hell. >2. The rich guy...

Damir: >not quite. putting a character into the past and >then telling in present/future tenses is standard >storytelling technique. think of all the mini-stories >told in wiseguy films - 3/4 of them are told this way. >brings a vivid sense of immediacy to the story. You are making...

Shoe: >You missed the point: Don't go getting shifty on me Shoe. Here was your point as you wrote it... >I have of course read this many times and have never >come away with the idea that it was anything other than >a story. Here are just some of the reasons: >1. It's past tense...

Shoe: >1. It's past tense. ROFLAO!!!!!!!!!! Shoe, it's the PARABLE that will most likely be told in present tense. ARE YOU KIDDING HERE. Quick...tell me a TRUE story from the past about your grandmother -- present tense? -- past tense? EXACTLY! If it is a true historical story of...

Dude...slow down and read what I have written in the past. I am not trying to prove or disprove an *enternal* hell. I am only demonstrating that THERE IS NO SILENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...and additionally that hell IS fiery in nature and is a torturous place (all things that you seem to...

More of hell from the mouth of Jesus... From Mark chapter 9 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is...

Various Shoe quotes on biblical hell: >There is a deliberate silence... I find that a very strange position considering what IS written. >Think about it: we have several passages describing >heaven, i.e. streets of gold, etc. Where is a similar >description of hell? Well, while...

LOL... you are just FULL of canned responses. JB PS: make sure and hit rewind. Wouldn't want you to be unprepared for the next encounter -- How embarrassing.

And where does this "truth of god" (which oh, BTW conflicts with the "word of god") come from? JB

>I brought that up because that is the only reason >that I can think of anyone would assume that the >fire at the end of the age was designed to torture >people endlessly I have no clue why you think "carbon based" is the ONLY reason for anything. This omnipotent can create fire/heat...

TFC: >Let me just start by saying that God has >NOTHING to do with the taking of life. Well...I guess that settles it then. I had no idea that the word of god was so rife with erroneous descriptions of his own actions. Thanks so much for such a well supported presentation. JB

Shoe: >If you want to believe that God tortures people in >a carbon-based fire endlessly, that's fine. But don't >expect me to believe it without any proof... I'm still too busy with trading stuff to respond in detail, but I just HAVE to respond to this "carbon-based" thing you keep...

There is significant description even from the mouth of Jesus himself. I will get there soon. JB

There is much truth to what you say there and I will add another observation to yours... I think often the easiest thing for us to do is to either be the same as our parents (perhaps from intellectual laziness), or *exactly* the opposite (perhaps from reactionism rather than reason). I see...