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no, i'm not arguing i'm saying its intuitively obvious, and agreeing with you.

i think a big partof this rally is the saddam verdict i bot YM @ the futures open on Sun evening for that very reason

"futures market is not zero sum when you include the cash market," well... duh the FUTURES market is zero sum the cash market isn't when you combine one with the other, you get a non-zero sum market my weekly poker game is zero sum when i combine it with the economy of ecuador...

can i repeat my senior year of high school if i could go back with what i know now, i could rule them like a colossus of yore

no, you don't if i am hedging a position in the cash market, with a futures position that says nothing about the futures market being zero sum it means that if you COMBINE a zero sum market and a non-zero sum market you get a non zero sum market i'll make this math easy for you zero...

cache landing, you are absolutely correct as i try to explain to the dimwitted... if the stock market goes down 20% a year for the next 10 years it's still not zero sum people who are arguing against the stock market being zero sum don't understand what zero sum means people...

oh, and btw - the futures market is structured that way open interest can vary. but there can never be more longs than shorts in the futures market try looking at COT reports if you find that concept hard to understand

to clarify in one sentence for the hard of hearing "opportunity costs (lost opportunity cause you didn't stay long and catch the whole move) are 100% irrelevant to zero sum) if the SUM of positions does not add to zero, it is not zero sum that is definitional. unless the stock market...

"If a company "creates wealth" suddenly as in your example, the longs become richer and those that sold their shares to them lose that same amount. This is zero-sum game I think." except that says nothing about zero sum games this is a classic example of somebody wanting to redefine a word...

i am going to say this one last time if u do not understand HOW wealth is created IN GENERAL, you cannot understand the distinctions between zero sum and non zero sum games it's that simple i can't explain this economics concept to somebody who is completely ignorant of economics, any...

i am not cofusing the two money is irrelevant the issue is wealth creation inflation aside, we as a nation and the stock market as a system have far more wealth than they did 70 yrs ago. inflation aside, the futures market has the exact same amount of wealth as it has ever had...

pick up a book on economics, if u don't understand how wealth is created. there are a million examples. everytime somebody makes an invention, for instance, that makes a production system more efficient- wealth is created. that is one example in many find me one (ONE) economist who...

of course thunderdog. you are right fwiw, i trade index futures for a living ALL my setups have predefined stops (different for deifferent setups) and predefined initial and secondary target tertiary and 4th target (assuming that sizing ) are more discretionary. i also think a...

yes. position sizing is essential one thing that many traders don't understand is that even if ur system has 90% winning trades, you can still have 6 losers in a row. given sufficient "n", you are practically guaranteed that.

"Having said that, I think the issue is much more complicated than that. Is the stock market a zero sum game? probably not and maybe not provided any increase in stock prices is matched by a non-inflationary increase in money supply" again. 100% irrelevant the lack of reading...

"Whitster ur very convincing but u can’t prove that u are right. So far creation > destruction. But who knows maybe we nuke each other to death, maybe Armageddon, maybe aliens will attack us. In the Armageddon case stocks are zero sum from beginning to end? There is no way of knowing that the...

and again , people misunderstand the term - ZERO SUM let me make this as clear as possible. game theory was invented in 1944 in the formulation of game theory, a term was used to describe certain kind of systems- ZERO SUM whether or not, a stock goes to zero, or even the whole...

i'll give one last example... you could open a stock market and have only ONE stock on the exchange. lets call that ABCD company. ABCD has an IPO at $50 a share. 1,000 shares. ok. capitalization of the market is USD 50k tomorrow, ABCD invents the cure for cancer. ABCD...

"Of course this is not true. But according to some your argument is a red herring fallacy. The counter-argument is that the issue is whether stock trading is a zero sum game and not whether the price of a stock reflects wealth created by the company that issued it." this is not "my argument"...

"The gains you refer to in the stock market since 1900 is due to inflation + dividend payouts." lol!!!