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I'd say that idealistic picture of a purely innocent and harmless personal belief system, is not what is borne out in history or reality and rather than being the true face, is only part of the many changing faces of Christianity. I suggest (small L) liberal democratic secular law based society...

I don't think I twisted your point Captain, certainly didn't intend to. Like there is alcohol there is religion and both provide the fuel for the perversions people like Pat Robertson and the alcoholics you deal with succumb to. If religion need be saved from Pat Robertson then so does the...

My point is associating the word saved with religion doesn't necessarily work. Like alcohol, religion can bring much unhappiness, hate, distrust and fear into people's lives. You only have to read the posts following yours that Jem made to get an inkling of it.

I'd just say the effects of alcohol drugs and religion can in many ways be very similar and saving people from them extremely worthy. I don't think Pat Robertson would ever ask, but surely someone should save him and those like him from religion.

How would it be anything like a great leap for mankind to join with Pat Robertson's or Jem's stumbling superstitions? Enlighten!

could I choose Pat Robertson, or waterboarding instead?

Child: I didn't know anything about God or sin. So would that mean I'd go to hell? Believer: No you wouldn't if you didn't know. Child: Then why did you tell me?

...and/or 'the inevitable category'? Nature is sufficient unto herself. In no way hath she need of an author. Marquis De Sade

Praise be. You may call me STU :)

So it turns out as usual your facts are not facts and not even speculation, just bullshit. No change there then. CERN does not confirm or validate the universe IS fine tuned. Neither does any science, anywhere. Numbers and values are given, not any fine tuning of them. It really is way past...

The standard model is not mathematically self-consistent and is as yet incomplete, which means the numbers you are referring to as fine tunings are not fact at all. ...for the fact!!? Really!! :D I asserted as fact! Lol. Irony just doesn't describe it.:rolleyes: If there is any...

It's easy to see when you're cornered, you always start with the name calling. The sentence is not out of context and I've not asserted any speculation as fact. All you can ever manage successfully - is the making of false accusations. Already said, if science has found evidence of a...

Makes sense. Looking at it that way , with the Universe as totality of everything, it does seem at least incongruous if not outrageously narcissistic for it in the form of us, to be separating out its own concepts to worship as a divinity.

You certainly do make false accusations...that's one. and you've rejected, blindsided and ignored a few hundred times everything that shows the same videos you keep tolling don't provide anything that could resemble a logical support for your "Creator" unless your "Creator is big G...

To have an honest conversation on this subject with you jem, you need to stop making false accusations all the time. You also need to stop implicitly or explicitly asserting big c.... Creator as if there has to be one, and stop suggesting math, science and the laws of physics, is...

Not at all silly. An eternal universe of nothing by which one or many embryonic universes constantly and spontaneously come into existence (quantum fluctuation) and collapse again until one or many evolve with the parameters a universe needs to exist in this way or that. The cause of a...

How is the scientific question. Why is the question religion asks and to which it asserts its simplistic answer, wherever things aren't as you say, absolutely certain. Or even when they are.

Except one is real and does make sense while the other isn't and never has.

Not the same page at all. Religion is not looking for an answer. Blind faith already decided it.