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nice bird, so do you trade off mostly chart patterns or are you just using them as confirmation of something you are not telling us?

buy1sell1, I happen to enjoy academic discussion once in a while. Of course this will not help anyone make money, but that goes for about 99% of the threads in ET. Alternatively, Why would someone who doesn't care even bother to open the thread and post?

can you define a while?

well saturnine if you read it all you would have gathered the understanding intended, but since you have reached a foregone gone conclusion then it doesn't matter really and you focussed in on one sentence. Yes I saw that sentence, but I also read and understood the rest. external benefits...

pekelo, what you and others are having problems with is defining benefit beyond money, not authority. In the narrow definition offered here, anytime you lose money, you lose whatever game you are playing. haven't you ever paid money for something and said- 'that was worth it'? people here...

whitster, you are simply a limited mind, I really don't give a damn then if you disagree with me.

so saturnine thinks it stupid to define benefit beyond pure accounting, here is what a finance professor says: http://www.turtletrader.com/zerosum.pdf My adobe will not allow cut and paste so i will paraphrase: p. 5: "Several important implications flow from whether trading is or...

This is just unreal. Regardless of hedging, trading ability, or anything else, as whitster says, futures and options are zero sum. Stating otherwise is like saying 2+2=5; quite literally. I have little interest in belittling anyone, but this is just getting ridiculous. There is nothing to...

congrats bird, what's next? the value of the S&P at 1425 EST on 12 December?

well that mantra is sort of gay I think. technically it is 100% down room but unlimited up room, so it's wrong anyway.

at least it is an interesting end. thanks for splainin' a little bird. how about webcams on bird and volente? not just snapshots of post-its

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from Perseus: if you can't understand that even in the futures markets that non-zero sum is possible (both the farmers and the Archer daniels benefit regarless of who made or lost money)...

gbos you forgot dividend yield. what is really childish is to call others who don't agree with you as stupid. my reasons are sound. I was told to get a 'figgen dictionary', well here is what wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum Zero-sum describes a situation in which a...

bird, while this is good entertainment could you please share some insight? why won't it crack 1300?

and you guys cannot make the definition of game and zero-sum to suit your own purposes. Is the game only the trading in the markets or is the game to make make money overall while using the markets to do so? why do you get to define the game and the rules? why do you get to define wealth only...

winter, the futures market is part of the economy, it is not seperate. However even if i take what you say, that it 'helps the economy', that still supports my case. Even if it only helps the economy that makes it not zero-sum for a true zero-sum game would not help the economy.

we are probably arguing some sematics here I agree with a lot of what you are saying, IF you only want to count the dollars in any particular trade at the time of the transaction. That's all a poker player cares about, however the participants are not all poker players and the transaction...

lights, there is no wealth 'in the market'.

winter but an economy is just one big market. the trade transaction itself creates wealth, this has been the story of economics for the last millenia. You are simply counting dollars in a trade like poker chips, I am counting real wealth and what further advantage the trade creates to get...

to consider the futures market disconnected from the underlying economy makes no sense to me at all. there is nothing gained in a poker treansaction, there is wealth created in a true trade of goods.